Spitfire 22 and 24

[Ed Russell]

This is a build of a couple of 1/72 Spitfires - the Jays (successor to Ventura who are re-issuing the kits) and the CMR Spitfire 22/24 in parallel. These are two kits from opposite ends of the spectrum. They are both very accurate but the CMR is quite expensive but complete and the Jays is quite inexpensive although a little basic. The object is to make them to a similar standard and compare the time and the resources I have to put into each. This will enable me to pontificate from a position of knowledge if anyone ever asks me to compare them!

Here's what I have available. There is a very nice reference book from Mark 1 Publications - soon to be re-issued with decals. This is highly desirable if you are tackling a late Spitfire like these.

The grey plastic bits are what comes in the Jays kit and the cream resin is all from the CMR kit.

Looking at the kit parts in more detail, you can see the mighty sprue gates, sometimes flowing on to the actual part and the lack of cockpit and wheelwell detail are going to be challenges in the Jays build. I have built a few CMR Spitfires before and I don't expect any problems. Also, the kit comes with a really nice decal sheet and some spare parts which I think the Jays kit will benefit from.

I can see the wheel wells are going to be a scratch-build job but I happen to have a Pavla resin cockpit for a PR.19 which I think I can adapt to the 22/24.

The current plan is to do one as a RAF 24 in camouflage with rockets and a belly tank and one as a Syrian 22 in natural metal or maybe camouflage. We shall see...........

Edited September 23, 2011 by Ed Russell

[Giorgio N]

Now a modern highly detailed resin kit versus an old school short run.. it's going to be an interesting comparison ! Looking forward to this, expecially as I have 4 Ventura Spit/Seafire in the stash.

I know the Mark.1 publication, didn't know it was being reissued with the decals ! I'll have to buy that !!!

[The wooksta V2.0]

The sprue gates on the Ventura kits look daunting but cleans up rather quicker than you may think. My only suggestion would be to replace the intake under the nose on the Jays kit with an Aeroclub example. Ditto the wheels and possibly the prop too.

[Ed Russell]

I'm doing these kits in parallel but it's the Jays kit's turn today.

The sprue gates and mould lines hold no fear for me when I am armed with my trusty weapon.

This was a Xmas present from my wife and is absolutely fantastic - I had my previous motor tool for 15+ years, rebuilding it a few times, but this is sooo much better!

First, we get to work on the wings, removing the mould lines and thinning the section to where we can accommodate a wheel well. A bit of easy scratch building and it looks just like the CMR one.

Then on to the fuselage, thinning out the inside and also the Pavla cockpit sides.

Then we can attach them. it took a couple of goes to get them straight but now they are lined up.

This looks good enough to cut out the cockpit access panel, so out with the razor saw a bit later on.

Well, yes, this is a comparison of two kits which have little in common except that they are both of a Spitfire 22/24 but it's been good fun so far and shows that there are many ways to the same objective.

The 4+ book was used by CMR as a base reference for their 22/24 so I am guessing the decals will be similar to those. It's a great reference and decals will be a worthwhile bonus. I'm not sure whether those Mark One Guides are decal sheets with very good instructions or books with an enormous decal sheet as a bonus!

I really don't know whether this build proves anything or not - except that there are lots of ways to have enjoyment! I'll let others judge whether it's useful or not. A long long time ago I did a Ventura Spitfire VIII which a mate thought was so good he kidnapped it for inspiration and now it's the best part of a continent away.

[Ed Russell]

Sprue gates - see above, no problem

Wheels - have spare Airfix PR.XIX or CMR ones

Props - I think I can lengthen the blades a fraction at the base to make them good

Intake - Unfortunately Aeroclub no longer available - not quite sure what to do here. I wish I'd noticed before joining fuselage halves!

The sprue gates on the Ventura kits look daunting but cleans up rather quicker than you may think. My only suggestion would be to replace the intake under the nose on the Jays kit with an Aeroclub example. Ditto the wheels and possibly the prop too.

[Ed Russell]

It's time to add a little paint to the sidewalls and then close up the fuselages. Instrument panels and some bulkheads can be added from underneath.

There's a little tidying to do just getting things to line up but it all works okay

Some heavy grinding has left some gaps in the fuselage but this is easily fixed with a bit of scrap plastic and a small amount of iller

Both kits are treated to something I have found essential in every 1/72 Spitfire I have made. A spreader between the forward fuselage halves will ensure minimal gaps if any at the wingroot-fuselage join.

Picture for illustrative purposed only.

[Doug Rogers]

Looking good Ed, looks like you've got you work cut out though!

[Ed Russell]

Looking good Ed, looks like you've got you work cut out though!

It's easier than it looks!

Now we have the fuselage halves joined up and the wings added without too much in the way of wing fuselage gaps. Given the amount of work in the cockpit, I cut out the entry doorway on the Jays kit to the size of the CMR door.

I wil next fill the joints and gaps with plasticard where possible and then as little Mr Putty as I can get away with. Now the tailplanes. I gather the 22 and 24 had subtle differences so I decided to use the CMR 24 tailpane on the CMR kit and the CMR 22 tailpane on the Jays kit.

This is all quite enjoyable work so far - it's over an extended period so not as hard as it looks.

[Ed Russell]

As I'm filling and priming the main assemblies, it's time to check out the detail parts and see what needs to be done.

First the exhausts - both of them look fine after the ends are drilled out.

Wheels - both options use 3 spoke wheels. The CMR ones look okay but the Jays are a bit indistinct in the 3 holes. I have some spare from an Airfix Spitfire PR.XIX (top ones) and I will use these. I need to fill the depth of the holes a little. just a dab of Mr Surfacer 500 will do the trick.

The Jays cannons are a bit too fat. Both options use the long barrel 20mm. I have lengthened the CMR short barrel ones with a piece of rod - we will see if it works. Otherwise I will re-profile the Jays ones using a power drill as an impromptu lathe.

Bothe sets of radiators look okay. The Jays are a couple of scale inches too narrow and need a shim of plasticard on their edges. Easy. The Jays kit comes with a nice piece of mesh for the radiator faces (not shown).

The Airfix undercarriage was much maligned for having the doors and legs moulded as one part but in reality the legs are semi-recessed into the doors so this is quite realistic. The Jays undercarriage follows this pattern and is quite good. I just need a fine file to make sure the CMR one does the same.

The Jays propeller blades need a bit of extension at the base. A piece of Contrail strut is about right.

Overall the CMR kit is better detailed as you would expect from a resin kit versus a limited run plastic one. It's worth noting though that the only Jays parts actually replaced are the wheels and maybe the cannons. I could have modified the tailplanes to the 22 version but I'm lazy (:>). To me, it seems the whole point of a limited run plastic one is that you need to use modelling skills and a decent spares box to get where you want to go.

Edited August 24, 2010 by Ed Russell

[Spitfire31]

Bothe sets of radiators look okay. The Jays are a couple of scale inches too narrow and need a shim of plasticard on their edges. Easy. The Jays kit comes with a nice piece of mesh for the radiator faces (not shown).

Sorry, but they most certainly do not look OK… ;-)

Griffon engined Spit radiators are slab sided in plan view! The completely spurious curved shape in the photo is most likely a misinterpretation of drawings showing the fillet fairing the radiator housing into the wing (which is curved in planview), taken to be the outline of the radiator housing proper.

The centre section of the radiator, in plan view and in side view is boxlike, straight, not curved.

In a couple of days, I'm going to show proof in the shape of pictures taken from directly below the Spitfire PR Mk XIX, now hanging from the ceiling in the new Swedish AF Museum in Linköping. Pity for the cockpit detail fans but an unexpected boon for us radiator Talibans. :-D

Until then, you'll have to take my word for it – they're not curved. ;-)

Best,

Joachim

[Ed Russell]

The centre section of the radiator, in plan view and in side view is boxlike, straight, not curved.

Hi Joachim - I took as my reference a few pictures and the AR Clint plans of the Griffon engine XIV. assuming it was the same, extracts of which are here.

Until then, you'll have to take my word for it – they're not curved. ;-)

I'm not sure I want to just take your word for it but I'll be very happy to see your pictures. EDIT - This picture of a PR.XIX which I took at Duxford last year supports your view on the PR.XIX radiator, but it is different to the Mk22/24 radiator as shown in the Mark 1 Guide to the Spitfire 24 so I am probably right in saying they are okay!

Edited August 24, 2010 by Ed Russell

[Ed Russell]

While I have been sorting out the bits and pieces, I have also kept working on the main assemblies. The wings and fuselages are filled and sanded, using mainly plasticard but a little filler (Mr Putty, which is a sort of styrene putty) and then given a coat of primer. This shows there is still a bit to do in this regard. The yellow Shurtape is to minimise the amount of putty (Tamiya grey stuff this time) spread on the fuselage. I can see the wing-fuselage joins need a little more.

It's encouraging that the two aircaft are starting to look the same! I'm hoping I can get the Jays one good enough for a natural metal finish. In the box are the belly tank and rockets for the 80 Sqn one.

[Calum]

Wow, you're a better man than I am. Great work to date

[The Hooded Claw]

Just as an aside, are you aware as to exactly how old the Jays Ex-Falcom molds actually are? I built my first in 1988/9 from a second hand kit that I purchased from ED Models!

THC

[Seahawk]

The pic of both primed together is quite telling, isn't it? Yes, there are differences (eg shape of undercarriage well blisters) but nothing about the Jays kit really grates. In fact the surface detail looks good. I bought a Ventura Spitfire FR.18 in July 1989, not longer after it came out, and felt that, once you got past the cleaning-up stage, you were left with an accurate model which was surprisingly refined in some areas (eg refined surface detail) while a bit crude in others (smaller parts).

[Paveshadow]

Looking good Ed. thought I'd take the opportunity to share a kit I discovered recently from Hawk. It's very basic, so I needed to add an undercarriage and will have to make the doors from scrap. (Hence the visit today to the Mk.24 - it wasn't just for your radiator question). The other point with my model is it comes with the early tail, so you can't make a 24 out of it.

So far...

Looking forward to seeing your completed builds.

James

[Ed Russell]

Putting on some real paint at last.

First some Xtracolour Medium Sea Grey on the CMR one.

and some Humbrol Matt Black on the Jays one, as an anti-glare panel and an undercoat for the Aluminium

Mea culpa edit - now I have just realised 1. I photographed the upper side of the CMR one and the MSG is of course the undersurface colour and 2. I should have put the cannons on a while ago. It appears that both aircraft used the 20mm Hispano Mk II cannons rather than the short barrel Mk V*.

A digression on tailplanes - it appears the difference between the 'early' and 'late' tailplanes is confined to an extra trim tab on the starboard side and that 'early' and 'late' does not mean the same as Mk 22 and Mk 24 respectively. So I could have used the Jays tailplane on the Jays kit. My contact in the Syrian Air Force is trying to find a picture.

[Paveshadow]

Mea culpa edit - now I have just realised 1. I photographed the upper side of the CMR one and the MSG is of course the undersurface colour and 2. I should have put the cannons on a while ago. It appears that both aircraft used the 20mm Hispano Mk II cannons rather than the short barrel Mk V*.

A digression on tailplanes - it appears the difference between the 'early' and 'late' tailplanes is confined to an extra trim tab on the starboard side and that 'early' and 'late' does not mean the same as Mk 22 and Mk 24 respectively. So I could have used the Jays tailplane on the Jays kit. My contact in the Syrian Air Force is trying to find a picture.

Ed, quoted from p.3 of the Mark I guide, lines 2-5, "All the F Mk.24s were fitted with a new rear fuselage and large vertical surfaces while only some of them were equipped with the new short-barrelled Hispano Mk. cannons, having the same calibre and ammunition stores as the Mk.II guns." - unfortunately no mention of which aircraft got what. I've not heard of any suggestion that 24 tails differred before so please post again when you have the response.

James

[Ed Russell]

Ed, quoted from p.3 of the Mark I guide, lines 2-5, "All the F Mk.24s were fitted with a new rear fuselage and large vertical surfaces while only some of them were equipped with the new short-barrelled Hispano Mk. cannons, having the same calibre and ammunition stores as the Mk.II guns." - unfortunately no mention of which aircraft got what. I've not heard of any suggestion that 24 tails differred before so please post again when you have the response.

I'll let you know if I hear anything

I used MM Non-Buffable Aluminium over the black and at first blush it looked fine.

Okay, I thought I better build a jig to get the cannons straight

and it did the job. This is Model Master Medium Sea Grey on the undersurface. Vaguely blue in the picture but looks okay in the plastic.

The non-buffable Aluminium is apparently a rather fragile finish and the usual recommendation is to overcoat it with something. A few web posts recommended Future which is what I used, Unfortunately, the result was less than satisfactory.

It looks like polluted raindrops... hmm, what to do next? Ideas?

[Duncan B]

Good stuff. I wish I'd found this thread a few days ago when I started my CMR F22, my first full resin kit and my first Spitfire. I have 2 questions, what is the definition of "late" regarding the tailplanes (circa 1950 RAuxAF machine?) and what would be the best filler to use on the CMr kit to fill the wingroot gap etc? Cheers.

[Ed Russell]

Good stuff. I wish I'd found this thread a few days ago when I started my CMR F22, my first full resin kit and my first Spitfire. I have 2 questions, what is the definition of "late" regarding the tailplanes (circa 1950 RAuxAF machine?) and what would be the best filler to use on the CMr kit to fill the wingroot gap etc? Cheers.

The tailplanes story is quite confusing. The Mark One book helps a bit and is recommended. The difference between early and late is only one trim tab that I can see in pictures and in the CMR kit. I have been told the Syrian ones were fitted with "most of the Mk24 equipment" and i have taken this to mean tailplanes also but the few pictures appear to show early cannons (like most Mk 24's). If I were to take a punt, I'd use 'later' ie extra trim tab on a 1950's one. I think the comment re new rear fuselage and larger tail refers to all 22/24's after the first couple.

As far as filler goes, your wingroot gaps should be pretty small and what I did was use cyano to glue fine strips of plasticard to fill most of the gap, then a small amount of Tamiya putty, then a small amount of Mr Surfacer 1000. All this done over a few days.

Post a few pictures of your build and beware the dangerous Spitfire addiction - my first kit ever, about 100 years ago, then one or two as a kid, then none for 20-odd years, now a squadron of the damn things! Plus - A-Z, more CMR's, Airfix Ia and XIX and more IX's all waiting to be built! But I gotta do a Mirage, a Wellington (or two) and a Bf110 first.... I need more of me!

[Ed Russell]

Okay, I solved the dirty-looking Future problem, which I think may have been humidity while I was spraying it. I took some clean rags, some ammonia, and gave it a good scrub - tha paintwork looked mostly okay but a little tatty. A light respray with the original Aluminium colour restored it to new.

After it was truly dry I overcoated that with testors Glosscote and it looked fine.

In the meantime, I painted the CMR one MM Ocean Grey and used a photocopy of the Mark One book to cut the camouflage patterns, which were affixed lightly with Blu-Tak and masking tape in readiness for some Extracolour Dark Green, which we have done here.

Note the rockets - an absolute pain to clean up. The separate fins delight in taking off as you cut them out and disappearing. It should be fun drilling little holes in the rockets' hind ends for a piece of wire to strengthen them a bit!

[Duncan B]

The tailplanes story is quite confusing. The Mark One book helps a bit and is recommended. The difference between early and late is only one trim tab that I can see in pictures and in the CMR kit. I have been told the Syrian ones were fitted with "most of the Mk24 equipment" and i have taken this to mean tailplanes also but the few pictures appear to show early cannons (like most Mk 24's). If I were to take a punt, I'd use 'later' ie extra trim tab on a 1950's one. I think the comment re new rear fuselage and larger tail refers to all 22/24's after the first couple.

As far as filler goes, your wingroot gaps should be pretty small and what I did was use cyano to glue fine strips of plasticard to fill most of the gap, then a small amount of Tamiya putty, then a small amount of Mr Surfacer 1000. All this done over a few days.

Post a few pictures of your build and beware the dangerous Spitfire addiction - my first kit ever, about 100 years ago, then one or two as a kid, then none for 20-odd years, now a squadron of the damn things! Plus - A-Z, more CMR's, Airfix Ia and XIX and more IX's all waiting to be built! But I gotta do a Mirage, a Wellington (or two) and a Bf110 first.... I need more of me!

I don't know about Spitfire addiction but achtung der Bf109 addiction, I have the most comprehensive and expensive 1/72 scale bf109 loft insulation and ditto your request for cloning!

Thanks for the information, I'll try and get some photos taken of the CMR kit in build and post them, but I am a very slow builder so don't expect lightning (oh oh, another addiction) progress.

[Ed Russell]

Moving on - out of the paint shop

Painting is mainly finished now and time for thinking about decals but first, I forgot the yellow wing leading edges - although 80 Sqn was at this stage in Hong Kong, the paint scheme was what they had in Germany. Just when I have persuaded banks and other people after ones money to stop sending me unsolicited credit cards, I find a use for them.

Masked more or less by eyeball and brush painted yellow.

Now we can check out the basic insignia decals from the CMR kit.

and start putting them on (after a coat of Future on the 80 Sqn one, the Syrian already having a gloss protective coat)

Note that the pictures have got a bit ahead of the narrative here and I have started on the stencils. (My Syrian contact says the walkways would not have gone over the roundels, so I have to change that).

The CMR kit comes with a very generous two sets of Tally Ho Spitfire 22/24 stencils - just the right number for my two models.

Just as an aside, some people complain that CMR kits are expensive, but you do get an awful lot of stuff in there.....

[Ed Russell]

While I'm decalling, I thought I'd have a look at how far to go.... well, there are more little bits than I thought

Especially when they aren't all there - I did find the missing tailwheel door in the box that I was keeping the bits in and it reminds me I need to make two for the Jays kit. That's not too hard. All those little things add up and up to the painting stage, I think i have put two-thirds to three quarters of the build effort into the Jays kit. Not a criticism - just pointing out to those who follow what they are up for. I expect the builds will be about equal from here on. there are a lot of little bits but the end is in sight.

Here's a forest of prop blades - do those full boxes behing represent my next comparison build? Maybe, maybe not.