Mosquito radar question...

[Jazzy Jase]

Posted this over on Mossie.org but not had any response. Can anyone here help?

I'm building a model of Mosquito HR241 for the D-Day group build. The instructions for the decals say it is an FB VI from 418 sqn, TH-M.

They also show the aircraft as having a four-pronged aerial on the nose and an aerial mast on the fuselage, behind the canopy.

However, the instructions I have for the kit (Tamiya 1/72) list only the NF II as having either of those aerials. It also shows the NF II as having some sort of aerials on the wing tips, as well as an extra set of lights on the rear of the wingtips.

From what I have researched, these aerials are related to radar. Could HR241 have been retro-fitted with the radar? And should I fit the wingtip aerials and extra wingtip lights?

I also need to figure out whether to put the radar screen inside the cockpit.

Jason

[Heraldcoupe]

According to this link, HR241 was an NF.II. I've seen other references to it being an FB.VI,

Cheers,

Bill.

[Jazzy Jase]

According to this link, HR241 was an NF.II. I've seen other references to it being an FB.VI,

Cheers,

Bill.

Thanks Bill. What an awesome picture. I can't believe I didn't manage to find that one myself. I will definately be buying that book!

I think that photo may just prove that it was an FBVI though. From what I have read over the last couple of days the FBVI had a strengthened wing that enabled it to carry those drop-tanks. Whereas the NFII didn't.

De Havilland also have it as a FBVI: http://www.dehavilland.ukf.net/_DH98%20prodn%20list.txt

"HR241 - FBVI - 1692 Flt/169/1692 Flt - Sold to Turkey 16.4.47"

The photo you linked to does show at least the nose aerials, so I now know they were fitted. I'm wondereing whether the radar was retro fitted? I think the extra set of wingtip lights can be ruled out, but I'm still not sure on those wingtip aerials or the cockpit configuration.

Interestingly the photo also shows the invasion stripes and what looks to me like a wavy line on the nose where the camoflage meets the black undersides. I think it has treadless tyres too, which aren't included in the kit.

[The wooksta V2.0]

Some of the FB.VIs had Serate radar which used the arrowhead aerial so it's likely that HR241 was fitted with that.

Courtesy of Mossie.Org:

Serial: HR241

Build Type: FB.VI, Merlin 23, 25 engines

Build Location: Standard Motors

Contract Number: 1680

Contract Date:  

Delivery Period: Between 16-6-1943 and 17-12-1944

Edited February 11, 2009 by The wooksta V2.0

[Robert A]

Some of the FB.VIs had Serate radar which used the arrowhead aerial so it's likely that HR241 was fitted with that.

Courtesy of Mossie.Org:

Serial: HR241

Build Type: FB.VI, Merlin 23, 25 engines

Build Location: Standard Motors

Contract Number: 1680

Contract Date:  

Delivery Period: Between 16-6-1943 and 17-12-1944

Wooksta's right that some FB.VI's had serrate and A.I. MkIV, however if this a/c had Serrate it would have no .303 machine guns as the Serrate boxes are in the nose where the .303 ammo usually is.

JazzyJase,

Your info shows the a/c served with 169 sqn, which was a 100 Group (Bomber Support), I suspect it was fitted with A.I. MkIV as a number of that squadrons aircraft were, in order to assist homing in on German Nightfighters. The fighter squadrons of 100 Group effectively hunted the hunters.

I've got quite a bit of reference on 100 Group so if you need anything let me know and I'l see what I can come up with.

Bob

[The wooksta V2.0]

Looking again at the photo of HR241 in Bill's link, it looks as though the guns have been removed, so my theory about it being a Serate Mossie looks more plausible.

[The wooksta V2.0]

Plausible, but if this were the case then why were they deleted from the Mosquito after the B.IV?

[The original Kit Builder]

This machine was definitely an FB Mk VI. She was a series 2 and carried the "intruder camouflage scheme" of dark green and ocean grey over black, probably with red codes.

These aircraft were employed to operate within and around the edges of the bomber stream in order to operate against German night-fighters. They often followed as the night-fighters broke off to return to base, intercepting them as they turned on their lights and established themselves on final approach to land.

The German response was to turn on the airfield and aircraft lights very late in the approach in an effort to get their aircraft down before the Mosquitoes had chance to aim and fire. The lights were turned off again as soon as the wheels hit the ground and the roll-out and taxi in was undertaken in complete darkness. This tactic was of limited success in protecting the night-fighters from being shot down and added significant risks to just getting back to the dispersals.

Edited February 11, 2009 by Kit builder

[timbo33]

Jase,

Warpaint Special No.3 has 4 profiiles for aircraft of 418 Squadron in early 1944 - 2 for NT137 - TH-T in (early) 1944 is in standard DG/OG/MSG Day fighter camo with Night serials and Dull red codes. Re-coded as TH-H in March 1944 has OG/DG upper surfaces and Night undersurfaces, with the night painted over the original MSG undersurfaces and up the sides, around the aircraft codes. Same for NT115/TH-J in same period. Both aircraft are show as FB.VI having the .303 MGs and no aerials.....

A later profile shows HR241 (the droid you're looking for?) coded TH-M in 'Late 1944' with DG/OG/Night scheme with Dull red codes and Invasion Stripes on the underside of the fuselage only (and partially covering the serial) It is shown as FB.VI with the nose mounted aerials and the MGs in position, though this could be artistic license...

So it's clear that the colour scheme and the radar fitment was changed sometime between March 1944 and the end of 1944 but not sure when....

EDIT

As a PS to the above I've just checked back on Bill's link and if you scroll up it describes the conversion of 418 Sqn RCAF to FB.VI Mosquitos and their use on Day Intruder missions in support of the ground troops after D-Day. Photo (not necessaily of 418 SQn aircraft) shows FB.VI in standard Day Fighter Camo with gunds and no radar....

the photo of HR241 in Bill's link is November 44 which is outside the range for the GB - you might be safer modelling another aircraft in that squadron in the earlier Day Intruder role...

HTH?

Edited February 12, 2009 by timbo33

[Jazzy Jase]

I've been doing some further digging and I've found a 6 year old thread on mossie.org.

http://www.mossie.org/forum/read.php?1,920

I've emailed the original poster on there but not sure whether I will get a reply.

It seens we have identified that the Xtradecals I have belong to two different aircraft:

1. HR241

169 squadron

VI-M

HR241

2. TH-M

418 squadron

TH-M

NS850

The aircraft from the picture in the first link is HR241, an FBVI

I now have another photo (below) which I believe is also HR241. It has the white-tipped spinners and letter M on the nose. In this picture however, the machine guns are in place and there are no drop-tanks. Both easily changed on the aircraft I imagine. The photo does not show whether or not the radar aerials/masts were fitted.

So, back to my build, I think I will buy try to buy some squadron codes so that I can make HR241, VI-M.

I still need to decide on whether I fit the nose aerial and with or without machine guns.

I also still don't know whether to fit the mast behind the canopy, the wingtip aerials or extra wingtip lights. I think, the latter two are unlikely though.

[Robert A]

Jase,

If you're doing VI-M, then it can definitely be modelled with A.I. MkIV, although my references point to VI-M as being an FBVI serialed NT112, certainly on the night of July 14/15 July 1944, when it was flown by W/O L.W. Turner and F/Sgt F. Francis and they shot down a Bf109 near Auderbelck. I can't find any victories for a Mossie serialled HR241 witihin 100 Group and 169 Squadron only flew Mossies whilst with this Group.

I can't find any proof of it having the Serrate homer fitted, although this doesn't mean that it wasn't fitted at some point.

As the Squadron is part of 100 Group the you should aslo include the GEE set and antenna, I can photocopy and send you info on this.

Also this means that the R1155 H.F. radio reciever was often moved to the radio equipment bay in the rear fuselage instead of being placed centrally on top of the wing behind the Observer/Nav, (this info came from an ex-wireless mech who served on in 239 Squadron, also 100 group on Mossie FBVI). the rear shelf was taken up by the gee reciever and AI mkIV associated kit, will try to sort out some diagrams for this if you want, although an official wiring diagram for AI mkIV in the mossie is as hard to find as a hens teeth.

Hope this helps,

Bob

Edgar,

The theory of the rear facing lamps on the wingtips being IR doesn't fit with my own research. I do know that a number of aircraft across Bomber Command, had Z equipment fitted, usually forward facing designed to function with the IR interrogator of an AGLT equipped a/c, however, there is evidence of 100 Group heavies, at least, having Z lamps fitted below the rear turret facing backwards, my ref's are only for 100 Group stuff so can't say definitvely for other units.

The Mossie XXX's of 100 Group were definitely fitted with an IR telescope, so this would aid the pilot to positively identify his target, so I'm guessing (and it's definitely just guessing), that rearward facing IR lamps may have been more widespread, but I can't substantiate this.

Bob

Edited February 13, 2009 by Robert A

[Jazzy Jase]

It seems there are too many questions over HR241 to build a 100% accurate model. Certainly with the Xtradecals I have I cannot make an accurrate aircraft.

Luckily for me, I saw this on Hyperscale and promptly bought some new decals.

They haven't arrived yet, so I'm not sure which aircraft I'm going to build but TH-Z is pictured with invasion stripes so would probably be the best candidate for the D-Day group build.

Mark Proulx has been helping me over on the mossie.org forums and also helped research the decals for Aviaeology. He says that both TH-Z and TH-M flew during the timeframe for the D-Day group build. Niether was fitted with radar.

[timbo33]

It seems there are too many questions over HR241 to build a 100% accurate model. Certainly with the Xtradecals I have I cannot make an accurrate aircraft.

Luckily for me, I saw this on Hyperscale and promptly bought some new decals.

They haven't arrived yet, so I'm not sure which aircraft I'm going to build but TH-Z is pictured with invasion stripes so would probably be the best candidate for the D-Day group build.

Mark Proulx has been helping me over on the mossie.org forums and also helped research the decals for Aviaeology. He says that both TH-Z and TH-M flew during the timeframe for the D-Day group build. Niether was fitted with radar.

From Warpaint Special:

Edited February 18, 2009 by timbo33

[Jazzy Jase]

From Warpaint Special:

timbo, it seems that warpaint special is incorrect and also most likely where Hannants got their information from when creating their Xtradecals sheet.

418 Sqn apparently did not use radar on any of their mosquitos and HR241 never served on 418 Sqn.

[andym]

And to add to the pot here's what the Ducimus book says on the scheme:

HTH

Andy

[Jazzy Jase]

And to add to the pot here's what the Ducimus book says on the scheme:

HTH

Andy

Thanks Andy, but I have to say that I think that book is wrong too. I suspect that one publication got it wrong and the others used that publication as a reference. I don't know anything about your Ducimus book. When was it first published?

I’m going to try to explain why I think HR241 was not coded TH-M but I’ve never been great at explaining stuff, so I hope this makes sense:

I’ve been looking into this with the help of people here and on mossie.org for a while now and the only photographic evidence of HR241 that has surfaced is the photo from Mosquito Fighter Squadrons book.

The caption for the image in that book is incorrect as it is labelled as a NFII and we know from the De Havilland records that HR241 was a FBVI. Also the photo shows drop-tanks which the NFII could not carry.

The drawing you posted from the Ducimus book shows an aircraft configured identically to the photo - radar aerial on the nose, under-wing drop-tanks, nose guns removed, White “M” on the nose, invasion stripes, white-tipped spinners. The drawing also includes the wingtip aerials for the radar.

The Warpaint Special image of the same aircraft omits the wingtip aerials and drop-tanks but includes the nose guns. I suspect the inclusion of the guns and missing wingtip aerials in this image were an oversight by the illustrator. Perhaps missed when copying the Ducimus image?

The three books all feature differing information, which to me says the information is suspect.

The photographic evidence does not show the squadron codes along the side, so where did the TH-M information come from? The only thing we can see from the photo is the letter “M” on the nose.

I cannot find any evidence of HR241 going to 418 Squadron. The De Havilland records have HR241 as going to 169 Sqn which was coded “VI” and operated with radar. There is also the possibility that HR241 went to 141 Sqn, which was coded “TW” and also used radar. 418 Sqn did not use radar.

There is strong evidence that NS850 was coded TH-M. An example is here and in the references below. Other evidence to suggest that HR241 was not TH-M shows that many of 418 Sqn’s aircraft had nose art and they did not have white-tipped spinners.

The identity of the “M” coded aircraft in the scanned picture still remains a mystery. It is a very similar to HR241 from the photo but several key differences point to it being a different aircraft.

So, in my opinion, the most likely code for HR241 is VI-M from 169 Sqn. There is a smaller possibility that it is TW-M from 141 Sqn.

Some of the references I have used can be found below:

http://www.mossie.org/forum/read.php?1,3967

http://www.mossie.org/forum/read.php?1,920

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=XIEzBrB...;cad=0#PPA11,M1

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=M3FURgZ...ary_r&cad=0

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=2LVE4Dl...ary_r&cad=0

http://www.hyperscale.com/2009/reviews/dec...previewmp_2.htm

http://www.geocities.com/cacmossies/

http://www.mossie.org/squadrons/418_squadron.htm

http://www.418squadron.ca/

http://www.rafweb.org/SqnMark408-429.htm

http://www.rafweb.org/Sqn166-170.htm

http://www.acesofww2.com/Canada/aces/z_ima..._black-rufe.jpg

http://www.acesofww2.com/Canada/aces/kipp.htm

[timbo33]

Jase,

Not wanting to get too anal about this (errrrm, which I do seem to be doing...) - those books were written by people who spent months researching the subject, having gone through loads more references than you have. If you want to get a true answer, the only way is to go to the Aircraft Maintenance records at the RAF MUseum and/or view the Squadron Operational Record Books at the National Archives in Kew to find the aircraft you're after.....

You've got to remember that aircraft didn't necessarily stay in one squadron, nor did they necessarily retain the same aircraft codes - the only constant is the aircraft serial. It was normal practice to re-code aircraft if they returned to the squadron after repairs in the MU as another aircraft would probably have been given it's original code to 'fill the gap'. It was also common practice for aircraft to be switched between squadrons to make up for losses or to provide planes for 'maximum effort' operations.

I'm not saying you're wrong in ignoring these references that HR241 was TH-M but I'm not sure you're completely right either. It is quite possible that HR241 came into 418 Squadron coded TH-H (for example) got shot up on an operation, went of to MU to be repaired, came back and was re-coded TH-M at which point the Squadron had taken on different operations and it was mofified. It may then later have been transferred to 169 Squadron and/or 141 Squadron. Your particular problem is in trying to pin down that particular aircraft at a particular date in time and, if I'm honest, the only way to do that is contact the RAF Museum at Hendon or the PRO at Kew. I would say, however, that it will be easier to prove that an aircraft DID fly in a particular Squadron at a particular time than it didn't, so there are very few people who would denounce your choice - most of us are just going to say 'a very nice Mossie - well done!! '

Tim

Edited February 19, 2009 by timbo33

[Jazzy Jase]

Jase,

Not wanting to get too anal about this (errrrm, which I do seem to be doing...) - those books were written by people who spent months researching the subject, having gone through loads more references than you have. If you want to get a true answer, the only way is to go to the Aircraft Maintenance records at the RAF MUseum and/or view the Squadron Operational Record Books at the National Archives in Kew to find the aircraft you're after.....

You've got to remember that aircraft didn't necessarily stay in one squadron, nor did they necessarily retain the same aircraft codes - the only constant is the aircraft serial. It was normal practice to re-code aircraft if they returned to the squadron after repairs in the MU as another aircraft would probably have been given it's original code to 'fill the gap'. It was also common practice for aircraft to be switched between squadrons to make up for losses or to provide planes for 'maximum effort' operations.

I'm not saying you're wrong in ignoring these references that HR241 was TH-M but I'm not sure you're completely right either. It is quite possible that HR241 came into 418 Squadron coded TH-H (for example) got shot up on an operation, went of to MU to be repaired, came back and was re-coded TH-M at which point the Squadron had taken on different operations and it was mofified. It may then later have been transferred to 169 Squadron and/or 141 Squadron. Your particular problem is in trying to pin down that particular aircraft at a particular date in time and, if I'm honest, the only way to do that is contact the RAF Museum at Hendon or the PRO at Kew. I would say, however, that it will be easier to prove that an aircraft DID fly in a particular Squadron at a particular time than it didn't, so there are very few people who would denounce your choice - most of us are just going to say 'a very nice Mossie - well done!! '

Tim

I hear what you are saying Tim but there are a lot of discrepancies between the different sources of information for HR241. Which one do we believe? The only one I can believe 100% is the photo and even that doesn't give us all the information.

I will try to speak to (or email) some of the authors of the books in question. I have no idea if I can gain access to the archives at Hendon or Kew, but that will have to wait for another time anyway as I don't have the time at the moment.

[StephenMG]

Easy way to get some reliable information - drop a line to the RAF Museum (via DoRIS) and ask for a copy of the Movement Card for the aircraft in question. That will tell you exactly which squadron it was with at what point in time.

[Jazzy Jase]

Easy way to get some reliable information - drop a line to the RAF Museum (via DoRIS) and ask for a copy of the Movement Card for the aircraft in question. That will tell you exactly which squadron it was with at what point in time.

Done. Thanks for the tip.

I have also emailed the De Havilland museum.

[timbo33]

Jase,

The Movement Cards will only confirm whether the aircraft was in a specific squadron at a specific time. It will almost certainly not tell you what it's Identification Code was - for that you'll probably need to consult both the Squadron Operational Record Book (ORB) and Group ORB at Kew. In my experience, the Squadron ORB gives the aircraft serial number and pilot name, the Group ORB gives the Pilot Name and aircraft ID Letter so by consulting both you'll mate the serial number with the aircraft identification letter.

You may be able to get this done by a researcher at Kew but at a price: . The ORB is here: Air 27/1821

Alternatively, here's a brilliant forum that I've found very helpful in this kind of situation RAF Commands Forum

HTH?

Tim

Edited February 19, 2009 by timbo33

[Jazzy Jase]

Jase,

The Movement Cards will only confirm whether the aircraft was in a specific squadron at a specific time. It will almost certainly not tell you what it's Identification Code was - for that you'll probably need to consult both the Squadron Operational Record Book (ORB) and Group ORB at Kew. In my experience, the Squadron ORB gives the aircraft serial number and pilot name, the Group ORB gives the Pilot Name and aircraft ID Letter so by consulting both you'll mate the serial number with the aircraft identification letter.

You may be able to get this done by a researcher at Kew but at a price: . The ORB is here: Air 27/1821

Alternatively, here's a brilliant forum that I've found very helpful in this kind of situation RAF Commands Forum

HTH?

Tim

Cheers Tim.

So, if I can get the Movement Card then I can find out whether HR241 was actually ever with 418 Sqn? If it wasn't then I can identify which squadron(s) it was with.

After that, hopefully a trip to Kew will reveal the ID letter for whichever squadron(s) it was with. (Shame you can't view the actual records online!)

I've been trying to figure out why I'm bothering with all this. I'm only making a model aeroplane! I think I've just got to the stage where I've convinced myself that the books are wrong and I need to find the answer for myself.

The RAF Museum say they need around 20 days to answer my request, so I need just need to wait it out and wait for the next clue!

[StephenMG]

So, if I can get the Movement Card then I can find out whether HR241 was actually ever with 418 Sqn? If it wasn't then I can identify which squadron(s) it was with.

Correct.

The Movement Card doesn't record a huge amount of info but it does show the tail number and where (i.e. which unit) that a/c was at any point in it's life. It will show when it was declared "Ready for Collection", i.e. available for the RAF to get their hands on it, the date every time it was issued to a new squadron (and which squadron), if it was declared "non effective", i.e. retired, or "struck off charge" etc..

It's really a potted history of it's service life so you will be able to determine if it ever served with 418 Squadron and which other units operated it, but not the individual code letter. For that you'll have to go elsewhere as already discussed.

[Edgar]

Judging by "Fighter Squadrons of the RAF and their aircraft," by John Rawlings, the ORB will have the information you need. The book lists 14 Mosquito VIs with serial nos and code letters, but not the one you're after.

The ORBs are now on microfilm, so you have to attend the PRO (now known as the National Archive) to view them. It's a fairly simple process, and the building is now open on Saturdays, with free parking available. You'll need a reader's ticket, which can be obtained on your first visit, by production of, for example, a driving licence.

When you have it, coats, phones, etc., must be left in the (also free) clothes lockers, then you go through a turnstile, and go upstairs, however you can only take sheets of paper (stapled together,) and pencils, no pens.

If you look in the AIR 27 file (an assistant will help you find it) you'll find the reference for the particular "book," then go into the microfilm room, choose a projector by picking a box with its reference no., and go to sit at it. Find the cabinet with the films inside, remove the one you need, replacing it with your box, then take the film back to the projector, and feed it into the projector. You can feed the film by hand, or electric motor, stop it wherever you want, then read each individual page (usually a day to a page.)

Edgar

[Mike]

All talk of resin or IR lights has now been moved to the thread here to avoid cluttering up the OP's topic.