Spitfire PR mk XI help!

[krazyivan1942]

Hi all,

this is my first post on this forum & I hope some of you Spitfire experts can help me.

I'm looking to made a 1/48 Spitfire PR mkXI from the Revell/Hasegawa MkIX/XVI kit to represent a 680 Squadron A/C, which was flown by 'Bud' Tingwell(Australian Actor).

I have the larger chin, the flat gun cover plates & other intakes.

I know that I will have to remove all the detail related to the guns under the wings & I'm looking to purchase the Quickboost PR XI camera conversion set.

Is there other details I should be looking at?

What type of roundels are on thet A/C & does someone produce decals of them?

Also the serial codes on the A/C, are they white or light grey & also is there decals for them?

The A/C below is what I'm looking to make, but with different serial codes.

Cherrs, Paul

[T-Tango]

to the forums Paul, the guy you want is Edgar, he's the resident Spit guru, I'm sure he'll be along soon.

[krazyivan1942]

Thanks for the welcome.

I'll keep an eye out for Edgar.

Cheers, Paul

[T-Tango]

Why not send him a PM.

[Notdoneyet]

Paul,

As I'm building a PRXI for the Vacform Group Build here I'll try to answer your questions :-

I'm looking to made a 1/48 Spitfire PR mkXI from the Revell/Hasegawa MkIX/XVI kit to represent a 680 Squadron A/C, which was flown by 'Bud' Tingwell(Australian Actor).

Depending how accurate you want to make your model you may want to replace the Hasegawa fuselage (which is too short) with the Aeroclub replacement and the spinner (which is too long) with an Aeroclub or Ultracast item.

I have the larger chin, the flat gun cover plates & other intakes.

I know that I will have to remove all the detail related to the guns under the wings & I'm looking to purchase the Quickboost PR XI camera conversion set.

Is there other details I should be looking at?

You will need a PRXI canopy (unarmoured rounded windscreen) - Falcon do an excellent vacform item.

The PRXI had two fuel pump blisters underwing just forward of the wheel bays - included in the Quickboost camera set.

Some PRXI's had wing mounted cameras and corresponding bulges under the wings to house them (your profile photo has one under the port wing) - also included in the Quickboost set.

You will need to add the ventral camera ports in the fuselage and perhaps the oblique camera port in the port hatch (behind the cockpit) - clear resin for these is included in the Quickbost camera set.

THe PRXI had a hatch on the starboard side behind the cockpit in addition to the port side hatch - a scribing template for this is also included in the Quickboost camera set. The Quickboost set also shows which panel lines and "lumps and bums" must be removed from the MK IX wind and where to rescribe to make a PRXI wing.

In the cockpit, the gun sight should be deleted and replaced by a camera control box.

What type of roundels are on thet A/C & does someone produce decals of them?

The roundels are Type B (wing 56", fuselage 30") - Xtradecal do a sheet of them in various sizes do a search on Hannants site for them.

Also the serial codes on the A/C, are they white or light grey & also is there decals for them?

Usually white but sometimes Medium Sea Grey - do a search on Hannants for suitably sized serials.

HTH and ,

Ian

[Edgar]

There are a few other items to consider:- the tailwheel, except on very early IX conversions, was retractable from December 1942; early XIs had the rounded rudder, later had the "Mark XII" pointed rudder; as well as the rounded windscreen, the canopy was either the bulged IX type, or had large teardrop blisters each side; late XIs had the "Coffman" bulge on the starboard engine cover; the underwing bulge, as shown in that drawing, should be under the starboard, not port, wing; the XI could carry the under-fuselage "slipper" tanks, so the hooks (to swing the tanks clear) under the fuselage were fitted; the under-fuselage cameras normally had a sliding blind fitted over the lenses, which could be slid clear by the pilot operating a cable (this ensured that mud didn't cover the lenses during take-off); like other Marks, the XI had the extended elevator horns from September 1943; no torsion links on the u/c until September 1945; no toe-straps, on the rudder pedals, after February 1944; 5-spoke wheels until March 1944, then 4-spoke; XIs appear to have had the Seafire-style seats, with a single-row fitting on the front of the seat-pan for Very cartridges, not the double-row beloved of many kit manufacturers; the Very pistol fitted into a clip on the seat, behind the pilot's right arm; upper wing roundels type "B" were normally 40", not 56" (Xtradecal XO2848 includes that size); fuselage roundels were 30" (also type B, so same Xtradecal sheet applies); serials were 4" high, could be red, grey, or white; there was an extra (camera) access hatch on the starboard fuselage, level with, and slightly aft of the radio hatch; late in the war (1944-ish) a beam approach aerial was fitted under the fuselage aft of the camera ports, and if IFF was fitted, by then it would have been a bar aerial, around 12" long, under the starboard wing. A proviso to the above:- in 1945 roundels were decreed to have a white inner ring added, plus a yellow outer, converting them to type C1; 16 Squadron complied with this, but I have no idea if 680 Squadron did the same. PR Squadrons, largely, were allowed to be a law unto themselves.

Edgar

Edited August 16, 2009 by Edgar

[Tango India Mike]

A worthy project and one that I'd be interested in too. Charles 'Bud' Tingwell is held in great affection here in Australia and it was very sad that we lost him recently, although, of course, we cannot expect people to live forever!

I'd be very interested in things like serial numbers and other markings for the aircraft he flew on ops...not just Spitfires, but also Mosquitoes...so I'm very pleased to see that someone has been able to track down such details.

I hate to drop a fly in the ointment, but I believe that not all PR XI aircraft were fitted with the booster pumps. I have photographs here of various aircraft, including some nice colour views of USAAF-operated ones, in which the under-wing blisters are completely absent. Perhaps someone else may know more about this.

Cheers,

Tim.

[Edgar]

Sorry, missed one; clipped to the left front corner of the cartridge rack was the business end of the "Pilot's relief tube." This consisted of a funnel, approximately 4" long (stainless steel, at a guess, and I'll leave you lot to discuss the diameter,) attached to a rubber tube, which was fed through a 1" diameter "lightening hole" in frame 10 (not the seat bulkhead, but the one in front,) then went down under the back of the seat, exiting through a hole 4.5" to starboard of the c/l, and 8" aft of frame 10. The mod for this is is 929, and, although there's no date, the date of the drawing is May 1943.

Edgar

P.S. A Blenheim pilot told me how the tubes occasionally froze solid, and it was a common sight to see pilots whipping them against the wing's l/e, to break the ice and clear them. Groundcrew, apparently, demurred at doing the job for them.

Edited August 16, 2009 by Edgar

[T-Tango]

Where, oh where do you get all your info from Edgar.

[Edgar]

I'm nosey.

[T-Tango]

Nice one mate.

[Edgar]

OK, I'll come clean; at the last count I have 120+ books on the Spitfire (including one dedicated to a specific Mark XI,) plus two lever arch files full or relevant articles, drawings, etc., plus another with photos (mostly mine) of whole airframes, and "bits," from Mk.I to 24.

Think Spitfire, and everyone thinks of the RAF Museum, and I've found a whole pile of stuff there (including a drawing of the XI "P" tube,) but there are hundreds of files at the National Archive, some of which contain absolute gems (for instance I only recently found that Smooth-type paints were not used, on the Spitfire, until September, 1942, contrary to what has been thought for years.)

The "nosey" part wasn't untrue, since it's surprising where some of these enquiries can lead.

Edgar

Afraid I missed another one; this is the wingtip vent pipe (it's actually on a XIX, but the XI should have been the same.) They were introduced onto the PR IV, when wings started splitting open due to the fuel expanding due to heat. The pipe went down to the u/s of the wing, and into a small venturi fitting, which took the fuel away into the airstream.

Edited August 16, 2009 by Edgar

[Antoine]

Thanks a lot for those info, Edgar.

[Dereknf]

Very useful stuff. I'm trying to do a free PR.XI from the bits left over after my recent Spitfire frenzy. I was doing OK, having bought only the Quickboost cowling and Falcon canopy set. My biggest problem is the wing. I have a set of Airfix MK.V wings which should be OK in outline but need modifications to the radiators, aileron size and the other bits and pieces mentioned above.

I was going to finish the model as PL965 but that seems to have some differences from wartime PR.XI aircraft. More research required.

[Antoine]

Edgar, I might open soon (As soon as I have the kit in my hands, maybe this evening?) a new thread like this one, but about the FR IX.

I'm sure you'll help.

[krazyivan1942]

Hi all,

thank you all, for all the info that I may require.

I have searched the internet & some books for pictures/photos of the PR Mk.XI that Bud flew, without any luck.

I have purchased a book today called 'Bud Tingwell's war sories' which has some serial codes of the PR Mk XI's & Mossie PR Mk.XVI's that he flew.

I will purchase the Quickboost sets, Falcon canopy, decals & use the info that has been provided to produce a PR Mk. XI that he may have flown.

I will most likely make the model look like the second picture that I posted, because one of the serial codes is "EN 655". The other codes that are in the book are in the 4 hundreds.

Paul

[Tango India Mike]

Hmmm, the book sounds interesting, Paul. Do you have any other details such as the publisher and ISBN, as I'd like to pick up a copy of it myself. As an aside, there were a couple of television interviews with Bud not so long before he passed away, in which he produced his original wartime issue helmet and oxygen mask...still in beautiful condition, though he declined requests to put it on because he said it wouldn't fit any more! As a well-known and much-loved veteran of stage and screen, I think many people were surprised to learn of his wartime flying. A modest and unassuming man, he typified a generation of Australians that has largely disappeared now. I'm pleased to know of your interest in him, as I think that period in his life has been overlooked in favour of his fame as an actor.

Welcome to this forum too, by the way!

Tim.

[krazyivan1942]

Hi Tim,

I didn't know that Bud was a WW2 pilot until I read a book earlier this year by Michael Vetch called "Flak".

I purchased Bud Tingwell's war stories from Target for $33.00.

There is a picture of the helmet & mask in the book, also his peck cap(in very poor condition).

Paul

[Edgar]

XIs (maybe not the whole lot,) flown by 680 Squadron, were EN655, EN661, PA483, PA845, PA850, MB785.

Mosquitos (IX & XVI) were LR444; MM287; MM289; MM291; MM297; MM330; MM335; MM347 "N"; MM348; NS469; NS496; NS530; NS534; NS683; NS705; RF987 "O"; RG117; RG316.

Edgar

Edited August 17, 2009 by Edgar

[krazyivan1942]

Hi Edgar,

thanks for all that info.

There is a page in the book, 'Bud Tingwells war stories' which has a picture from Bud's flight log book & it has EN655 and the mission/s that was flown.

Paul

[Tango India Mike]

Thanks Paul and yes, I have the Michael Veitch book too. I gather you must be here in Australia by your mention of Target...I'll hop over to our local branch tomorrow and see if they've got a copy.

As another aside, and for those 'non-Australians' who may not know of Bud Tingwell, it's interesting that he got his start in films indirectly through his wartime service. On leave at the time, and with an eye to what he was going to do when eventually demobbed, he spotted an audition notice for the forthcoming production of 'Smithy', a dramatised account of Sir Charles Kingsford-Smith's exploits, and went along to meet the director. He was offered a small speaking role as a Flying Control officer...on the proviso that he wore his own uniform! He always joked about it, of course, but I'm sure the director must have recognised that he had some talent.

[The wooksta V2.0]

Is this the same Charles Tingwell who worked as a voice artist on several Gerry Anderson series, including Thunderbirds?

[Tango India Mike]

I wouldn't be at all surprised, Wooksta. Like many actors of his generation, he did his time in the radio dramas of the 1950s here in Australia, and also worked abroad. I can't at this moment recall the title of the British film about Rommel (The Desert Fox, or something similar), but he appeared in that and quite possibly did other work in Britain during the 1960s.

You may also remember him in 1980s films like 'Breaker Morant', if that got a run in British cinemas.

[krazyivan1942]

Yes he did some voices in the Thunderbirds and the movie about Rommel was called 'The Desert Rats', about the Aussies holding off Rommel at Tobruk.

Paul

[Edgar]

He played a doctor, about 40 years ago, in one of the first real "soaps," on British television "Emergency....Ward 10."

Edgar