27 Squadron Blenheim Mk 1f With Fighter Band And Night/sky Undersurfaces

[Gmat]

Steven Modeldad Eisenman posted these pictures from Life at ARC. (Sorry, it should be Hyperscale.)

Among them were good pictures of the PT coded Belenheim Mk 1Fs of 27 Squadron.

Notice the fuselage fighter band on this Blenheim and that the left undersurface is Sky. If you view it blown up, you can see that it appears that the right side of the undersurface of the nose and the right engine are light colored.

Taken Apr.41.

http://images.google.com/hosted/life/f?q=S...82c1430f3c3c1cc

And here is one of the right nose. You can just make out the front of the gun pack. Hard to see, but the night/sky division cuts across the gun pack.

http://images.google.com/hosted/life/l?img...DN%26start%3D90

This was also taken in Apr. 41. Note the right undersurface is Night or Black.

http://images.google.com/hosted/life/l?img...DN%26start%3D36

Left side without fuselage band. Cannot tell the colors of the right undersurface.

http://images.google.com/hosted/life/l?img...N%26start%3D162

A Japanese wartime publication had a photo of PT*F, L6616 with the same band on the tail. It was on jacks. So Sqdn. Leader Scarf's aircraft was probably coded FX*F if it was serial number L1134.

Thanks Steven.

Best wishes,

Grant

Edited February 3, 2010 by Gmat

[ben_m]

Interesting. I think the last photo shows night on both sides of the aircraft (look at the main gear covers, compared to the one showing the sky/night undersurfaces).

[mhaselden]

Interesting. I think the last photo shows night on both sides of the aircraft (look at the main gear covers, compared to the one showing the sky/night undersurfaces).

The half-and-half underside scheme with fuselage band matches the identification markings applied to day fighters in Far East Command (ie the Buffalos) while the Blenheims with all black undersides were presumably used as night fighters. It therefore appears that 27 Sqn had both day and night fighting roles.

Edited February 4, 2010 by mhaselden

[Gmat]

Hi Mark, I hope that you are fine and well.

I don't have the magazine with the Blenheim picture any more. Could you post it and the other one that you had? It seems to have had the later rectangular fin flash.

Some more photos that I missed while searching the pages before.

27 Squadron Blenheims. These and the ones posted above are dated Apr. 41.

Better view of the fuselage band.

http://images.google.com/hosted/life/l?q=S...fdce30ddd7a0c0a

Here is another taxiing past Buffaloes. Notice the Buffalo in the background is lacking the fuselage band. Could the fighter bands have been added at this time and we are seeing a transition period?

http://images.google.com/hosted/life/l?q=S...7e0ccb8c42c047a

Harder to see, but with the fuselage band. Look under the horizontal tail surface. L3521?

http://images.google.com/hosted/life/l?q=S...08be1061d2e8080

One more nose shot. Better view of the gun pack.

http://images.google.com/hosted/life/l?q=S...afecc72c5579fdf

Undercarriage.

http://images.google.com/hosted/life/l?q=S...4c6406ce2643c3c

Wonder who the crewman is?

http://images.google.com/hosted/life/l?q=S...20979a6c122f425

Hudson.

http://images.google.com/hosted/life/l?q=S...8f94bfe51f97e8e

Buffalo, taken 1941, same photographer, Carl Mydans, but no month given. Without fuselage band.

Any guess on the color of the spinner?

http://images.google.com/hosted/life/l?img...:life%26hl%3Den

Best wishes,

Grant

[Test Graham]

http://images.google.com/hosted/life/l?img...DN%26start%3D36

This one, discussed above as having Night starboard undersides, is a bomber. No gunpack. Perhaps I've missed something, but I don't sdee any fighters with all-black undersides.

[mhaselden]

Grant,

The Buffalos were delivered in standard camouflage with no identification markings so the spinner of W8202 would be Dark Earth. The fuselage band, black port undersides and unit codes would be applied by the squadrons. Given that these photos apparently date from April 1941, it appears Far East Command was still at the stage of organising the Buffalo squadrons as the aircraft only started arriving the preceding month.

Graham,

The Blenheims with all black undersides could be bombers but 27 Sqn was a fighter unit. Orders for Operation MATADOR cite the presence of 2 fighter squadrons in Northern Malaya in early December 41 which were 21 Sqn RAAF with Buffalos and 27 Squadron. In most histories 27 Sqn is specifically identified as a night fighter unit but these pictures show this not to be the entire story, and that they retained a day fighter role.

Kind regards,

Mark

[Test Graham]

Do we know if the aircraft concerned were delivered as fighters/bombers or were the gunpacks delivered separately to the Far East? In the latter case, we could be seeing an aircraft serving with the unit but awaiting its turn for conversion. It would still find a useful role in training and support operations. Alternatively, it could be intended/being used in the intruder role. However, as a straightforward night fighter it lacks firepower, and is not painted in the approved overall black. The latter may be judged insignificant. but not the former.

Is there any indication as to what the light colour was? "Sky", as we know, could be hiding a large can of worms.

Edit: remove duplication

Edited February 4, 2010 by Graham Boak

[mhaselden]

Do we know if the aircraft concerned were delivered as fighters/bombers or were the gunpacks delivered separately to the Far East? In the latter case, we could be seeing an aircraft serving with the unit but awaiting its turn for conversion. It would still find a useful role in training and support operations. Alternatively, it could be intended/being used in the intruder role. However, as a straightforward night fighter it lacks firepower, and is not painted in the approved overall black. The latter may be judged insignificant. but not the former.

Is there any indication as to what the light colour was? "Sky", as we know, could be hiding a large can of worms.

Do we know if the aircraft concerned were delivered as fighters/bombers or were the gunpacks delivered separately to the Far East? In the latter case, we could be seeing an aircraft serving with the unit but awaiting its turn for conversion. It would still find a useful role in training and support operations. Alternatively, it could be intended/being used in the intruder role. However, as a straightforward night fighter it lacks firepower, and is not painted in the approved overall black. The latter may be judged insignificant. but not the former.

Is there any indication as to what the light colour was? "Sky", as we know, could be hiding a large can of worms.

Graham,

According to "Beaufighters Over Burma: No.27 Sqn RAF 1942-45" the Blenheims were delivered as bombers in Jan 41 and mentions a "change of role" notified in Feb 41, coupled with the move to Singapore. Prior to this time, the unit was considered a "general purpose" squadron. It's not entirely clear what scheme the Blenheims were delivered in - did they have Sky or Night undersides and what was overpainted, with what and when? There was obviously some repainting at Singapore and a number were converted to fighters, a task that easily fell within the capabilities of 151 MU. Given the Apr 41 timeframe, I think it logical to assume that the photos show the unit in the midst of conversion to a fighter unit - perhaps they were all ultimately assigned as day fighters (but that's just a theory). Note that theatre markings were a matter for local command so the "approved overall black" of units in the UK does not apply. Finally, given the very traditional thinking present in Air HQ Far East (ie bombers were for attacking airfields while fighters just flew defensive patrols), I don't see much scope for 27 Sqn having an intruder role.

Regards,

Mark

[Steven Eisenman]

.....and the light color on the underside of the Hudsons? Doesn't appear to be aluminium.

[Test Graham]

Mk.I Blenheims were delivered with black undersides, as shown in other pics of early arrivals, standard for the time. I recall one picture (in a BAe internal magazine many years back) claiming to show the first arrival, the problem was that it had been taken from underneath another aircraft, with the distinctive Blenheim wingtip! The pale green appeared on Blenheims (mainly Mk.IVs?) in Europe after the start of Mk.IV production, and before being named "Sky".

Some Hudsons were RAAF machines, others flown out from the UK (see the writings of Terence O'Brien, particularly "Chasing After Danger"). The latter's undersides can be expected to be Sky, or perhaps "Sky Type S Grey"? For the former, I bow to others' opinions, but would not be surprised to see RAAF Sky Blue.

[Steven Eisenman]

The Hudsons were RAAF. In fact the closest aircraft is A16-51 was the first Mk. II in RAAF service. But the Hudsons were factory painted in DG/DE, so not sure they would hav been repainted in RAAF color. Note the color of the spinners compared to underside. Metal vs Aluminum lacquer.

Edited February 4, 2010 by Steven Eisenman

[Nick Millman]

Studying the largest version of that Hudson photo I think it could be aluminium paint and they still carry underwing serials too which suggests that they had not been overpainted with Sky or Sky Blue paints.

[mhaselden]

Studying the largest version of that Hudson photo I think it could be aluminium paint and they still carry underwing serials too which suggests that they had not been overpainted with Sky or Sky Blue paints.

RAAF specs of the time called for painted aluminium with serials in black under the wings. This doesn't discount the possibility that they just painted serial numbers over whatever colour the Hudsons were delivered in but I tend to plump for the aluminium option.

[Gmat]

Mark,

Thank you for the info on the spinner. Did other single engine fighter aircraft have dark earth spinners? I was hoping that it might have been more special.

On the mission of 27 Squadron. I believe that their first war mission was as a bomber, so they seemed to have used the aircraft in a more traditional role. I often wondered why they seemed not to have included any AI Mk. 1Fs. I think rather than a nightfighter squadron, that their role might have been like a Blenheim day fighter squadron. I also read somewhere that they were slated to receive Marylands.

Best wishes,

Grant

[mhaselden]

Mark,

Thank you for the info on the spinner. Did other single engine fighter aircraft have dark earth spinners? I was hoping that it might have been more special.

On the mission of 27 Squadron. I believe that their first war mission was as a bomber, so they seemed to have used the aircraft in a more traditional role. I often wondered why they seemed not to have included any AI Mk. 1Fs. I think rather than a nightfighter squadron, that their role might have been like a Blenheim day fighter squadron. I also read somewhere that they were slated to receive Marylands.

Best wishes,

Grant

IIRC, most RAF single-engined fighters were delivered with black spinners at this time. The Buffalos are an interesting case because their spinners matched the camouflage. I haven't done an airframe-by-airframe comparison but I think some of the aircraft had dark green spinners (which might match whether the aircraft was painted in Type A or Type B camouflage patterns). Also note that W8202 still has the ring-and-bead gunsight - these were removed and replaced with reflector gunsights by the squadrons.

Perhaps 27 Sqn retained its "general purpose" role and was equipped with standard bomber Blenheims as well as the fighter variants. I think someone would need to check the unit's Operations Record Book for 1941 to determine what role changes were assigned to it. The proposed re-equipment of 27 Sqn with Marylands is mentioned in the "Beaufighters Over Burma".

Edited February 4, 2010 by mhaselden

[Gmat]

Thank you very much.

Best wishes,

Grant

[Nick Millman]

I think rather than a nightfighter squadron, that their role might have been like a Blenheim day fighter squadron.

I'm pretty sure their deployment as a night fighter unit - or at least to provide night defence - is covered somewhere. I'll have a dekko at my Singapore stuff to see what I can find - although I'm getting a sense of deja vu on this topic and seem to recall it has also been addressed elsewhere.

Regards

Nick

[mhaselden]

I'm pretty sure their deployment as a night fighter unit - or at least to provide night defence - is covered somewhere. I'll have a dekko at my Singapore stuff to see what I can find - although I'm getting a sense of deja vu on this topic and seem to recall it has also been addressed elsewhere.

Regards

Nick

Nick,

The official RAF campaign history identifies 27 Sqn was a night fighter unit. However, this series of LIFE pics has shown that at least some of their aircraft were painted in Far East Command "Day Fighter" markings. The question is further confused by 27 Sqn's first operation which seems to have been a bombing mission against the Japanese invasion fleet.

If 27 Sqn was a dedicated NF unit, then why put it in Northern Malaya - surely defence of Singapore was a more logical location? Perhaps with the arrival of 21 Sqn RAAF at Sungei Patani on 25 Nov 41, it was decided to revert 27 Sqn to a bombing role. Per my previous post, I'd love to review 27 Sqns 540 to see what it says on the subject - I recall having skimmed through it once a long time ago but my interest then was the actual campaign and, IIRC, the record ends in Nov 41 so I discounted it as a source. However, I think it may be of use in answering the above questions because the decisions were made in the period Feb-Nov 41.

KR

Mark

[Nick Millman]

Hi Mark

I'll keep looking but as GOC Malaya Percival certainly thought he had a squadron of Blenheim nightfighters deployed ('The War in Malaya', page 104). My understanding (also from his book, page 113) is that the movement of aircraft to attack the invasion fleet (decided Percival and AOC) was responsive and therefore expedient rather than part of a cunning pre-war plan.

Also, I think we might be reading too much into the colour schemes. AFHQ Far East was clearly confused and the prevailing orders as they pertained to overseas commands were confusing. If they had been followed to the letter the Blenheims should have been painted overall Night at that time. Quite possibly some bet-hedging may have been going on as well as the fact that the squadron was still working up (? Referenced somewhere). I do wonder if the deployment of 27 at that time was flight role specific - day and night capability pending work up. There were probably all sorts of local instructions, counter instructions and assumptions about what the squadron should be doing - it was pretty shambolic.

These thoughts just quick and dirty - not fully referenced or intended to argue!

Regards

Nick

[Gmat]

After most of the squadron aircraft were destroyed up north, 27 Squadron flew some night interception missions over Singapore. Possibly these might have been from a dedicated nightfighter portion of the squadron. Unfortunately, they were not very successful. Perhaps this is what Percival might be remembering. Soon after, remnant aircraft and crew were absorbed/consolidated with another squadron. Sorry, Bloody Shambles isn't easily available right now, so I can't be more specific.

Best wishes,

Grant

Edited February 4, 2010 by Gmat

[mhaselden]

Hi Mark

I'll keep looking but as GOC Malaya Percival certainly thought he had a squadron of Blenheim nightfighters deployed ('The War in Malaya', page 104). My understanding (also from his book, page 113) is that the movement of aircraft to attack the invasion fleet (decided Percival and AOC) was responsive and therefore expedient rather than part of a cunning pre-war plan.

Also, I think we might be reading too much into the colour schemes. AFHQ Far East was clearly confused and the prevailing orders as they pertained to overseas commands were confusing. If they had been followed to the letter the Blenheims should have been painted overall Night at that time. Quite possibly some bet-hedging may have been going on as well as the fact that the squadron was still working up (? Referenced somewhere). I do wonder if the deployment of 27 at that time was flight role specific - day and night capability pending work up. There were probably all sorts of local instructions, counter instructions and assumptions about what the squadron should be doing - it was pretty shambolic.

These thoughts just quick and dirty - not fully referenced or intended to argue!

Regards

Nick

Nick,

I entirely agree - the bombing raid on the morning of 8 Dec probably was pure expediency. Given the paucity of resources in the theatre, I think it highly unlikely that an entire unit would be dedicated to the NF role, so having some hybrid (night undersides with DG/DE uppers) makes sense. Also, per my previous post, it's my understanding that local commanders had authority to direct specific camouflage and markings for aircraft under their command - in other words, it wasn't driven by what was happening in the UK. I don't know when 27 Sqn deployed to Sungei Patani but I always had the impression that they'd been there for some time as a fully-constituted squadron.

KR

Mark

[Nick Millman]

After most of the squadron aircraft were destroyed up north, 27 Squadron flew some night interception missions over Singapore. Possibly these might have been from a dedicated nightfighter portion of the squadron. Unfortunately, they were not very successful. Perhaps this is what Percival might be remembering. Soon after, remnant aircraft and crew were absorbed/consolidated with another squadron. Sorry, Bloody Shambles isn't easily available right now, so I can't be more specific.

Best wishes,

Grant

I think Percival was remembering the intention rather than what happened because the remarks are contained in his evaluation of the airpower available to his command before hostilities began. In other words he thought he had available within his air strength a dedicated Blenheim nightfighter squadron. Night air defence of the city was also a political hot potato after the first unchallenged raids. There remained to the very last minute a fundamental split in the views of the staff on both the Japanese intentions and the best strategic response (with airpower) and I think that is reflected by the rather confused (and confusing) deployments.

Regards

Nick

[Gmat]

Thank you, Nick. Very interesting info that you and Mark are providing.

Best wishes,

Grant

[justplanecrazy]

Steven Modeldad Eisenman posted these pictures from Life at ARC. (Sorry, it should be Hyperscale.)

Among them were good pictures of the PT coded Belenheim Mk 1Fs of 27 Squadron.

Notice the fuselage fighter band on this Blenheim and that the left undersurface is Sky. If you view it blown up, you can see that it appears that the right side of the undersurface of the nose and the right engine are light colored.

Taken Apr.41.

http://images.google.com/hosted/life/f?q=S...82c1430f3c3c1cc

And here is one of the right nose. You can just make out the front of the gun pack. Hard to see, but the night/sky division cuts across the gun pack.

http://images.google.com/hosted/life/l?img...DN%26start%3D90

This was also taken in Apr. 41. Note the right undersurface is Night or Black.

http://images.google.com/hosted/life/l?img...DN%26start%3D36

Left side without fuselage band. Cannot tell the colors of the right undersurface.

http://images.google.com/hosted/life/l?img...N%26start%3D162

A Japanese wartime publication had a photo of PT*F, L6616 with the same band on the tail. It was on jacks. So Sqdn. Leader Scarf's aircraft was probably coded FX*F if it was serial number L1134.

Thanks Steven.

Best wishes,

Grant

Guys not to want to put a fly in the oinment but PT is 62 Squadrons allotted code, 27 does not seem to have used theirs on their Blenheims. Great pictures none the less.

Nick

[Steven Eisenman]

Guys not to want to put a fly in the oinment but PT is 62 Squadrons allotted code, 27 does not seem to have used theirs on their Blenheims. Great pictures none the less.

Nick

Had to ruin our fun, did you?

Oh well, obvious facts have a way of flying under, over and around the radar. Thanks. Then again I came across this reference: No. 420 Squadron RCAF 'Snowy Owl Squadron' Code letters "PT"

No 62 Squadron

No 62 Squadron Formed on 8 August 1916 at Filton from a nucleus provided by No 7 Training Squadron, it spent the following year as a training unit before receiving Bristol F2Bs in May 1917. However it was January 1918 before the squadron moved to France, where it carried out fighter-reconnaissance duties until the end war. Following duty with the occupation forces, it disbanded at Spich in Germany on 31 July 1919.

The squadron reformed in the day bomber role on 3 May 1937 when 'B' Flight of No 40 Squadron at Abingdon was raised to squadron status. Initially equipped with Hinds, it began to receive Blenheim Is in February 1938 and in August 1939 these where taken to Singapore. here the squadron flew training missions interspersed with coastal patrols. Having moved to Butterworth in Malaya in early December 1941, the squadron carried out attacks against Japanese shipping and airfields during the invasion. However, having lost most of its aircraft in enemy attacks against its airfields, it re-equipped with Hudsons in January 1942 and moved to Sumatra. As the Japanese advance continued the squadron withdrew to Burma, absorbing what remained of No 139 Squadron and continued to carry out attacks on enemy airfields and shipping.

In May 1943, the squadron was withdrawn to India, where it began converting to the transport role, equipped with Dakotas. It was now mainly involved in supply dropping operations to the 14th Army in Burma and these continued until the end of the war. After the war it changed over to general transport duties throughout South-East Asia Command until disbanding at Mingaladon on 15 March 1946. Nearly six months later, No 76 Squadron at Mingaladon was re-numbered No 62 on 1 September, again equipped with Dakotas.

It moved to India in March 1947 as a cadre, but having been brought back up to full strength, was disbanded on 10 August 1947. A further spell as a Dakota equipped transport squadron began on 8 December 1947 when it reformed at Waterbeach. It had been reformed to work on the Berlin Airlift and following its successful conclusion, the squadron disbanded again on 1 June 1949. Its final incarnation was from 1 February 1960 to 31 January 1963 as a Bloodhound surface-to-air missile unit at Woolfax Lodge.

Motto: Inseperato (Unexpectedly)

Squadron Codes used: -

62 May 1937 - Nov 1938

JO Nov 1938 - Sep 1939

PT Sep 1939 - Feb 1942