Save a bunch of money.

[Siggi]

After not being much impressed by getting only 100ml of track-blackening liquid for a tenner I spent a couple of hours scouring the net for an alternative. I found it, a liter of selenium print toner (Ilford) for £25 from my local camera shop. It appears to be a concentrate as it says to dilute it to 4 liters on the bottle, but I've tested it neat and boy, did the links go dark. Proper dark, not like the £10 stuff (serious fumes too). The finish, after about five minutes in the stuff, is like very dark rust (as in chocolate-brown).

Note: I soaked some links for about ten minutes in a 50/50 mix of bleach and balsamic vinegar prior to finding out about the toner and it left them half shiny (original finish) and half dull grey. It's these links I've tested in the toner and only the dull grey areas have gone rusty. I've tried some links straight from the box and the toner hasn't touched them so far, so it looks like a good soak in bleach and vinegar is needed first, until all the shininess has gone. I'm currently soaking some more in the B&V solution and will report back later, but it looks like so long as the links are prepped properly this toner is the business. Hopefully this will give Fruil track-lovers some sensible value for money in the blackening (rusting) dept.

Edited November 23, 2010 by Siggi

[Mike]

I look forward to the results of your research, Prof. Siggi. Is that really how much they run you for 100ml of track blackener?

[Siggi]

Yes, it's the 3-bottle set from TIHobbies. A 100ml bottle of 0.15% caustic-soda solution (de-greaser), a 100ml bottle of phosphate solution (conditioner) and a 100ml bottle of selenium solution (blackener). I figured the selenium must be very expensive to get wholesale until I found the stuff at the camera shop, now I realize it's just greed. And the stuff from TIHobbies is highly diluted, hence the lack of proper colouration I got out of it with a 4-minute soak. I'm going to strip the pigment and paint from the Panther tracks and redo them in the toner. Judging by the links I've tested so far there will be no need for paint or pigment.

Meanwhile the other links are still cooking in the B&V solution outside in the yard.

Edited November 23, 2010 by Siggi

[Mike]

Just make sure all that crap's safe to use, as we don't want to read about your untimely demise in the newspapers

[Siggi]

After reading about a guy who inhaled phosgene while welding I'm being very careful.

The B&V solution has so far failed to prep the links 100% (no idea why that would be). I've bought some white (distilled) vinegar and a bottle of coke (phosphoric acid) and am trying two tests with those. If the vinegar on its own fails I'll mix bleach with it, as white vinegar was the type suggested rather than balsamic.

[Mike]

White vinegar & hot water is also a great (and cheap) solution to limescale

[Siggi]

Doesn't prep the surface of a link unfortunately. I'm trying white vinegar with bleach now.

[Siggi]

White vinegar and bleach does it. The toner gave a dark grey this time, but having looked at the first ones under strong light and fully dried they look dark grey to black too. Strangely enough the white vinegar and bleach leave them looking a bit rusty but it rubs off.

Anyway, it would have been a bonus if the dark grey one had been brown but blackening aids painting (the original intent) and the toner is a lot cheaper than the kit. Vinegar and bleach are pence.

[little-cars]

White vinegar & hot water is also a great (and cheap) solution to limescale

We use lemon juice for limescale, makes the kettle smell fresh as well!

[little-cars]

Yes, it's the 3-bottle set from TIHobbies. A 100ml bottle of 0.15% caustic-soda solution (de-greaser), a 100ml bottle of phosphate solution (conditioner) and a 100ml bottle of selenium solution (blackener). I figured the selenium must be very expensive to get wholesale until I found the stuff at the camera shop, now I realize it's just greed. And the stuff from TIHobbies is highly diluted, hence the lack of proper colouration I got out of it with a 4-minute soak. I'm going to strip the pigment and paint from the Panther tracks and redo them in the toner. Judging by the links I've tested so far there will be no need for paint or pigment.

Meanwhile the other links are still cooking in the B&V solution outside in the yard.

As a stockest of the TiHobbies product I'm watching this with interest to see if you get a working alternative.

The TiHobbies product is a lot more cost effective than the alternative product from the US, but if you can show a simple way of producing the same effect it will save me stocking it.

[alanmac]

Hi

I would err on the side of caution when randomly mixing chemicals. Mixing Bleach with vinegar gives off some nasty life threatening fumes and whilst it sounds like you are taking the precaution of working outside, others may not pick up on this..... too late.

I first read about an alternative to Blacken It on the mig forums. It's there that the comments about fumes which I'm repeating here.

To see the thread and read all comments go here

Blackening tracks

Alan

Edited November 24, 2010 by alanmac

[Siggi]

Mother of god, chlorine gas?! I thought it was the toner that was dangerous, I only put the B&V outside as well because I'm paranoid.

I orginally believed the post I read elsewhere meant the B&V was meant to be used to blacken the tracks, but after trying it and seeing no immediate change I decided I'd misunderstood the post and it was meant to be used only as a prep for the blackening phase.

I've since left a bunch of tracks in B&V for a good few hours and it does actually produce a somewhat stunning effect. It appears that the B&V undergoes a reaction with the white metal and produces a rust-coloured sludge, much of which adheres to the links. If it's brushed off too vigorously the link is left with a grey colour, but if it's only rinsed under the tap much of the rusty look is retained.

If the link is then put into the toner it goes a very dark grey or even black if left in for a few hours.

Either way, both methods produce results as good as or better than the dedicated kits. I've actually wasted the £25 I spent on the toner because the B&V is the best result all round. For a wrecked tank the links can be used as-is. For a tank still in service the links can be scrubbed to leave grey, which can then be modified with paints and/or pigments. Pukka tracks for pennies (vinegar cost me 57p from Tescos, the bleach was around a quid).

Just in the interests of science I'm going to try various combinations of the toner, bleach and vinegar. Fortunately I have a gas-mask; fingers crossed the filter it came with is up to phosgene and the like.

[Wayne]

This is very interesting research you're busy doing. Any chance you can post a couple of pics for us to see the results of your experiments?

By the way, I would suggest not smoking a fag whilst working with your chemicals, like your avatar suggests!

Wayne

Edited November 24, 2010 by Wayne

[Tigerausfb]

Tried paint?

If you're set on experimenting, have you tried gun blue? It's a paste at around £5 a pop. I think they've changed the formula these days as it used to be cyanide based.

Andy

[Siggi]

Don't worry, I'm not smoking near this stuff, it's at least six feet away at all times. On the other side of a door, outside.

The top group of links has been in the toner for about five minutes after being prepped with the balsamic vinegar & bleach. The B&V didn't get a chance to completely prep them, hence the patchy effect from the toner.

The single link in the middle was after a decent prep with the white vinegar and bleach and about five minutes in the toner. I had a link that had much longer in both solutions and had gone 100% dark grey/black but I can't find it at the moment.

The bottom group were in the B&V for at least three hours, no toner.

Tiger, I used paints and pigments on the assembled Panther tracks after blackening in the 3-bottle Hobbies kit but the B&V looks far superior. No, I've not tried gun blue and judging by the B&V results I don't think there will be a need. The bottom group look patchy but I think that was because they were all jumbled up in a small pot. I think if the tracks are laid out flat in the B&V the reaction will be spread evenly over their surface. Which I'll be trying shortly soon as I've removed them from the tank and stripped all the paint. I'll post a pic soon as it's done.

[pigsty]

Something has just occurred to me. Isn't balsamic vinegar also about ten quid a spoonful?

[Siggi]

Something has just occurred to me. Isn't balsamic vinegar also about ten quid a spoonful?

No, it's around £2.50 a bottle. White vinegar is around 50p a bottle.

[Wayne]

Those ones at the bottom look really good! Nice effect that, thanks for sharing your experiments. I'm thinking chains on ships would benefit from some of this treatment too.

Wayne

[Siggi]

Those ones at the bottom look really good! Nice effect that, thanks for sharing your experiments. I'm thinking chains on ships would benefit from some of this treatment too.

Wayne

I think it'll depend on what material is being treated. Brass is probably more inert than the alloy that constitutes white metal so it'll be a case of suck it and see. Can't hurt though, I've not dissolved any of the links so far.

[keefr22]

I've not dissolved any of the links so far.

I was just thinking about that when reading through your posts - have you actually done anything to arrest the reaction - or could it still be working? You may find you have some nice heaps of 'rust' in a few days or weeks!

[Siggi]

Cold and hot water. Once it stops smelling of WW1 I figure it's done.

[worm]

I'm just wondering if Aluminium wheel cleaner will have the same effect as it contains phosphoric acid which can also be used to etch prime aluminium.

Steve

[Siggi]

I'm just wondering if Aluminium wheel cleaner will have the same effect as it contains phosphoric acid which can also be used to etch prime aluminium.

Steve

That's useful to know, thanks.

[Siggi]

I've done what I can with these tracks. The B&V solution never produced a rusty sludge, only a pale green one. I guess because the 3-bottle kit had already formed an oxide skin that the B&V couldn't penetrate. They did go a much darker grey though, so the B&V must have had an effect on the skin.

[vonmarkenhausen]

Just in the interests of science I'm going to try various combinations of the toner, bleach and vinegar. Fortunately I have a gas-mask; fingers crossed the filter it came with is up to phosgene and the like.

I wouldn't worry about Phosgene too much! Generally speaking It's R22 refridgerant used in big fridges and cooling systems, then you have to burn it.

By the way the bleach and vinigar looks best.

Edited November 25, 2010 by vonmarkenhausen