Supermarine Type 500 - 'Jet Spitfire'

[dambuster]

Following the disastrous D-day landings, in which the Allies failed to gain a foothold in Europe, it was realised that they were in for another year of bringing Germany to its knees through strategic bombing before another try at opening the second front could be undertaken. Meanwhile, the use by Germany of an increasing number of V-1 wepaons threatened to turn the war into one of attrition between the opposing forces....... to be continued.

Peter

Edited October 16, 2010 by dambuster

[Micha]

hi Peter!

a few minutes ago I had an idea ... based on my previous idea "what if the commies would have won the cold war" I got another idea: "what if the Nazis would have won the 2nd world war"

well ... in this case I wouldn't exist ... definitely not

But the idea is this: to build some modern war birds in the Nazi colors and swastikas. There could be totally different planes in the air and the Phantom or the Eurofighter would never be build.

What would the sky look like if the Nazis would have won that f***ing war

Edited July 27, 2010 by Micha

[Daniel]

Following the disastrous D-day landings, in which the Allies failed to gain a foothold in Europe, it was realised that they were in for another year of bringing Germany to its knees through strategic bombing before another try at opening the second front could be undertaken. Meanwhile, the use by Germany of an increasing number of V-1 wepaons threatened to turn the war into one of attrition between the opposing forces....... to be continued.

Peter

Peter,

Sounds interesting, and yes, you can certainly join in.

Dan

[Devilfish]

well ... in this case I wouldn't exist ... definitely not

You and me both. Isn't it weird how some people owe their existance to Germany losing the war.......

I like the idea of modern planes in Nazi markings. Brings up a lot of questions.

Which aircraft? Seeing as Germany themselves don't, and haven't made an actual warplane since the end of WW2. You could assume they took over aircraft factories in their occupied territories...But which ones? Did they invade England?

Then Markings and camoflage. After 70 years of peace, would the colour schemes have gone back to something more like the pre-war designs?

Sorry to hijack your thread Dambuster....

......what have you got planned for us?

[dambuster]

......what have you got planned for us?

In order to ensure that German industrial capability would be completely destroyed, the Allies concentrated on their strategy of day and night bombing. This was seen as the top priority as it would be the only way to prevent German forces from re-equipping with sufficient equipment prior to the planned opening of the 'new' second front in the summer of 1945. Accordingly UK effort was concentrated on delivering greater numbers of heavy bombers, and in supporting the daylight raids by the USAAF with increased fighter escort. Meanwhile, most of the German rocket scientists were killed during an accident when a V-2 rocket undergoing a test firing went 'rogue' and obliterated the blockhouse from where they were watching the test. This brought a halt to the V-2 programme and, lacking a capable heavy bomber with which to hit the UK mainland, German industry increased production of the V-1 and refined the design to make the weapon more effective, including adding better guidance systems. A major success was scored when just after midday on 17th September 1944 two of the improved V-1 weapons scored a direct hit on an aircraft factory at Hucclecote, just outside Gloucester. ..... to be continued.

Peter

[AnonymousDFB1]

Okay you've got my interest.

[ChancerUK]

Definately something intresting brewing here. One point though, if the D Day landings had failed there's a damn good chance France would have ended up in the Warsaw pact. Please go on....

[dambuster]

The failure to open the second front had allowed Hitler to redeploy his forces to bolster his Eastern defences as he realised that it would be at least a year before the Allies could attempt another invasion. He realised that his best strategy was to press for a stalemate in the West and hope that by bombing England with the V-1 he could acheive what the Blitz had failed to do. Learning from Goering's tactical error in 1940, he promoted Adolf Galland to head the Luftwaffe and directed that all efforts be made to eliminate the Allied bomber bases to relieve the pressure on German industrial capability. Improvements were made to the V-1 guidance system and it was modified to be launched from mobile trailers. By mid-October the new V-1 was starting to have an effect on the RAF and USAAF bomber forces with seven airfields being completely destroyed and twenty-one suffering varying degrees of damage.... To be continued

Peter

Edited July 29, 2010 by dambuster

[dambuster]

On 28 October the Luftwaffe dealt a severe blow to RAF strategic bombing capability when they launched 63 new V-1 weapons against the Pathfinder bases in Lincolnshire. Scampton and Upwood were totally destroyed and Coningsby and Woodhall Spa put out of action. Sadly, a number of experienced Pathfinder crews were also killed; the weapons were timed to arrive in late afternoon just as crews were briefing for the evening's missions.

The following day Churchill called a crisis meeting of his senior Officers at the request of the Chief of Air Staff, CinC Bomber Command and the General Commanding the USAAF in Europe. The 'bomber boys' directed much of their anger at CinC Fighter Command and the Army Anti Aircraft Units who were, it appeared, totally unable to protect the bomber bases. CinC Fighter Command turned his anger on the Minister for Aircraft Production in failing to deliver enough high performance fighters to provide a fighter screen against the V-1 menace. The Minister of Aircraft Production, in turn, blamed CinC Bomber Command for his demands for virtually the whole production capacity of Merlin engines and the new Griffon engines to sustain the bomber force and the American daylight fighter escorts which were so necessary to defeat German industrial capacity and open up the chance of a new invasion attempt in 1945. He also turned some anger towards CinC Fighter Command for failing to bring down the V-1s which had wiped out the entire Gloster aircraft design team on 17 September, and put back development of the new Gloster jet fighter by at least 9 months; the same fighter which it had been hoped would prove to be capable of dealing with the V-1 threat.

It appeared that stalemate had been reached with no apparent solution. Churchill gave the assembled audience an ultimatum - find a solution within 48 hours or face the prospect of having to sue for peace with Gemany. Chastened, the senior staffs went away to come up with a solution..... to be continued.

[Daniel]

This is not fair!

Dan

[dambuster]

On 31 October the committee reconvened to discuss their options. It was agreed that whatever the solution was it could not impact on the current high priority bomber and fighter escort production, thus ruling out Avro, Handley Page and Shorts from developing an effective solution. Similarly, it would also be preferable if Mosquito production could be maintained as this aircraft was seen as the only one that had any prospect of seeking out and destroying the mobile V-1 launchers deep in Europe. For this reason de Havilland were unable to come up with a workable solution in time. Furthermore, Sydney Camm at Hawker Aircraft was busy trying to sort out the structural problems with the Typhoon, although this was seen as low priority, and also understand why the Tempest was having structural problems with the thin wing, let alone overcome reliability issues with the Napier Sabre engines in the same aircraft. And as already noted, the Gloster design team had been wiped out earlier so there was no prospect of quickly picking up the Gloster jet fighter development into an operational aircraft. All therefore agreed that what was needed was a fighter with sufficient speed to intercept the V-1s and which could be produced quickly, so they turned to Supermarine for a possible solution.

Fortunately, the Supermarine design team had been working flat out and had come up with some rough drawings and performance calculations that indicated an effective solution. It also had minimal impact on other priority programmes and preparatory work had been undertaken at risk to build the first prototype. Thus the Supermarine Type 500 was born.

Now came the difficult task of turning the idea into something tangible.

Peter

[Daniel]

I see, you have almost come up with my second build, but not quite, suffice to say it would be good to get my build and yours together at the end!

Yours does have much more thought put into it though!

Dan

[Mark M]

need piccys

[dambuster]

Although they had started some preliminary work, the Supermarine design and construction staff were having difficlty in sourcing some of their material for construction of the Supermarine Type 500. In a request directly to the Minister for Aircraft Production they suggested that the engines from one of the prototype Meteors that had been sitting idle at Moreton Valence since the end of September could be allocated; this was agreed and orders to remove the engines and despatch them to the Supermarine shadow works in the Midlands were issued. The engineers had also recommended using the laminar flow wings from the Mark 21 Spitfire although there was some initial difficulty in re-allocating a set from the production line. This matter was resolved by the direct intervention of the Head Designer at Supermarine.

It was likely to be a few more days before the basic components could be assembled together ready for construction, so effort was being directed at drafting up the detailed installation drawings and modifications required to the basic airframe structure. The Head of Supermarine was at pains to explain to Churchill and other interested parties that plans were in hand and work would commence as soon as feasible, and asked for their patience. He sugested that Churchill be invited to view the basic components at the factory at the start of the programme, and this was agreed. Although intensely curious, Churchil realised that he would have to wait a litle while longer before any visible progress would be apparent.

need piccys

[Daniel]

Although they had started some preliminary work, the Supermarine design and construction staff were having difficlty in sourcing some of their material...

Does that mean you need to buy some bits

Dan

[dambuster]

Thanks to Troy Smith who provided the old Meteor, here are the basic components courtesy AMT, Airfix, Tamiya and Academy:

Peter

[dambuster]

Supermarine staff started work at earnest in producing the engineering mock-up and were able to provide some initial photographs to Churchill. A number of issues were still to be resolved but Churchill was assured that the drawings for components were in hand and the design staff could not see any major problems apart from ensuring that the jet exhausts were sufficiently insulated to protect the pilot.

Peter

[Daniel]

Looks like it will have a very bulbous nose!

Dan

[Devilfish]

Am I missing something here? How does it fly if the jet exhaust exits out of the sides?

[dambuster]

Am I missing something here? How does it fly if the jet exhaust exits out of the sides?

The prototype will have a bifurcated jet pipe, and the exhaust will exit towards the rear, not at 90 degrees as in the engineering mock-up.

Peter

[dambuster]

Knocked up the main fuselage tonight, still need to add some seat belts. Added a firewall to allow some engine bearers to be added later.

Worked out how to construct the rear of the cowling using the spare from an Airfix XVI.

Will need to thin down the interior of the Meteor cowling to fit the engine from the Tamiya kit:

Still need to build the exhausts and the sides of the cowling. Will be a tight fit but I think it will work.

(The wings are from an Airfix Seafire which I will build as the FR46 variant. My other Seafire will be an FR47 and the FR46 wings are earmarked for a Spitfire 21 using the Aeroclub Conversion.)

Peter

[RussTnailZ]

Great start look forward to seeing more

Russ

[ChancerUK]

Intresting concept looking forward to seeing how it develops

[AnonymousDFB1]

Looking good

[Murdo]