Mentalguru Posted July 13, 2010 Posted July 13, 2010 (edited) One of the most elusive RAF modelling subjects- always disappoints when there appears to be no "evidence," but.. In "The Fight For the Skies" (allied fighter action in Europe and North Africa 1939-45) by Roger Freeman- "Squadron Leader M.P.C. Holmes poses in front of his Typhoon 1B JP504/OV-Z with pet dog Ace, Tangmere, October 1943. Both pilot and machine would be missing in action. When flying another Typhoon the popular 'Jacko' Holmes of No197 Squadron was seen to have an engine fire ,and out of control, crash near Buchey, France on 24th January 1944. It is not known if this was due to enemy action. After modifications his original Typhoon JP504, issued to No.137 Squadron, was shot down by flak near St. Vith on 26th December 1944, the pilot being killed. IWM CH11584) The captioned photo of JP504 clearly shows the "car door"open, and a VERY snazzy pair of inner wheel doors. What say you? Edited July 13, 2010 by Mentalguru
AnonymousFO98 Posted July 13, 2010 Posted July 13, 2010 The Tiffies had ID stripes as they were alledgedly being mistaken for Fw190's and would be bounced by the RAF, USAAF and shot at by friendly ground fire. The black stripes are/t the same as the D-Day stripes, being thinner. Can't remember the dimensions. iirc they are on undersides only.
Andrew Jones Posted July 13, 2010 Posted July 13, 2010 Several methods were trialed to prevent misidentification of the typhoon, starting with an all white engine cowling from November 1942. this was found to be too distinctive so from 5th Dec 1942 it was ordered that the white cowling be removed and replaced with 12" black bands under the wings, 24" apart and starting with the outermost band aligned with the inboard edge of the ailerons. From 19th Dec 1942 this order was ammended to paint the area between the black stripes white. I believe this stripes were retained until replaced by the D-day Bands.
Mentalguru Posted July 13, 2010 Author Posted July 13, 2010 Thanks for the answers guys- appreciated- BUT this is nothing to do with Typhoon i.d. bands Respectfully
Chris Thomas Posted July 13, 2010 Posted July 13, 2010 As the Walrus says - Holmes' JP504 OV-Z had Typhoon identity markings - 4 black 12" stripes under each wing seperated by 3 24" white stripes. These were worn by all Typhoons between 5 December 1942 and 7 February 1944. The car-door Tiffie with invasion stripes is not that elusive - although there were only a handful, mainly with 174 and 181 sqns - I illustrated one in 2ndTAF Vol 4. XP-R JP671 with half fuselage stripes and under wing stripes, as it appears in IWM film shot at B.5 in the second week of July 1944; it would have had full stripes up until the beginning of July at least. More examples of the use of the inner sides of the u/c doors for markings to denote leaders' aircraft have come to light - checks and diagonal stripes being evident on some aircraft. Post war the same area was used to display squadron or fligh colours. CT
Mentalguru Posted July 13, 2010 Author Posted July 13, 2010 As the Walrus says - Holmes' JP504 OV-Z had Typhoon identity markings - 4 black 12" stripes under each wing seperated by 3 24" white stripes. These were worn by all Typhoons between 5 December 1942 and 7 February 1944.The car-door Tiffie with invasion stripes is not that elusive - although there were only a handful, mainly with 174 and 181 sqns - I illustrated one in 2ndTAF Vol 4. XP-R JP671 with half fuselage stripes and under wing stripes, as it appears in IWM film shot at B.5 in the second week of July 1944; it would have had full stripes up until the beginning of July at least. More examples of the use of the inner sides of the u/c doors for markings to denote leaders' aircraft have come to light - checks and diagonal stripes being evident on some aircraft. Post war the same area was used to display squadron or fligh colours. CT Hi Chris- the point of the inclusion of the text was to offer that JP504 was put back into service after D-Day, so "may" have carried stripes. I have certainly never seen a picture of a car door a/c with stripes- soI know for a fact your "revelation" will go down extremely well with quite a few modellers! Any chance of posting up links/photo's?
Test Graham Posted July 13, 2010 Posted July 13, 2010 The "put back in service" will have been after a rebuild to the later standard, so wouldn't help in this particular case.
Chris Thomas Posted July 13, 2010 Posted July 13, 2010 (edited) Hi Chris- the point of the inclusion of the text was to offer that JP504 was put back into service after D-Day, so "may" have carried stripes. I have certainly never seen a picture of a car door a/c with stripes- soI know for a fact your "revelation" will go down extremely well with quite a few modellers! Any chance of posting up links/photo's? Sorry to disappoint but the modifications to JP504, before it was returned to service after D-day, were new canopy and RP mods! The photo with Holmes and its subsequent appearance in 137 Sqns were illustrated in 'Typhoon and Tempest Story, p.64/5. No links to post and I can't get my head round the photo-posting method on this site. If someone else wants to scan the photo and profile from 2TAF Vol.4 and post them I won't throw a wobbler!. The photo, taken from film, is a bit distant and not too sharp but nonetheless conclusive. JP671 was the last of the 'coffin-hood jobs' with 174. Incidentally, 174 and 181 sqns still had a few car-door aircraft with RP because they were the first squadrons equipped with RP - before the new canopies were around in any numbers. Subsequent units received new Typhoons with sliding hoods and RP mods or rebuit aircraft which had the RP and canopy mods incorporated simultaneously. CT Edited July 13, 2010 by Chris Thomas
Steven Eisenman Posted July 14, 2010 Posted July 14, 2010 Sorry to disappoint but the modifications to JP504, before it was returned to service after D-day, were new canopy and RP mods! The photo with Holmes and its subsequent appearance in 137 Sqns were illustrated in 'Typhoon and Tempest Story, p.64/5. No links to post and I can't get my head round the photo-posting method on this site. If someone else wants to scan the photo and profile from 2TAF Vol.4 and post them I won't throw a wobbler!. The photo, taken from film, is a bit distant and not too sharp but nonetheless conclusive. JP671 was the last of the 'coffin-hood jobs' with 174. Chris, What page? No problem
Mentalguru Posted July 17, 2010 Author Posted July 17, 2010 Chris and Steve- thank you very much for posting this- much appreciated.
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