43 Squadron Spitfire VIII, France 1944

[Jon Kunac-Tabinor]

Any takers? 'Cus I'm stumped:)

Jonners

[Nigel Bunker]

An educated guess only, I'm afraid but I'd go for Dark Green, Ocean Grey, Medium Sea Grey with a Sky fuiselage band, codes in Red with a White outline and a Red spinner.

[Test Graham]

How about the Sky band painted out with the lighter uppersurface colour?

[Gary C]

Revell put 43 Sqn decals in this, no band though...

How about the Sky band painted out with the lighter uppersurface colour?

Looks that way to me, can't see any break in the OG.

[Bo hermansen]

Is that the Hasagawa aircraft in Revel boxing

Bo

Denmark

[Gary C]

Yes, it is.

[Nigel Bunker]

Next guess - sky band overpainted in Ocean Grey?

[Jaffe284]

Yes, ocean grey is the "tailband"

Remember, this is quite late in the war, after the southern front through Italy is opened. The tailbands by this stage of the war - late -44 - was painted out as they weren't needed the same way due to allied airial supremacy. Also the spinner is red, as it was for all allied aircraft comming up from Africa through Italy.

[Test Graham]

Just a couple of minor points.

With those upper roundels, and the Sky band painted out, that's 1945 not 1944.

The Red spinner was a joint-services markings for fighters in North Africa. It obviously lasted to some extent into the Italian campaign but I don't believe it universal.

[Troffa]

Without trying to confuse matters any further, the original snap shows a 43(F) MkVIII in the South of France in 1944, whilst the Revellagawa kit represents a Spitfire Mk IXc of the same Squadron in 1945, whilst based at Klagenfurt (or maybe Zeltweg) in Austria. (I haven't got the kit to hand at the moment).

I believe that the Sky band has been overpainted on the MKVIII with Ocean grey, and note that 43(f) seemed to hang onto that Red spinner with the white base plate until well after the war. (the non standard Red Codes with white outline are also a bit "flash" compared to most other units.)

I recall reading that the sky band was deleted in European theatre due to the appearance of the coloured ID bands on Luftwaffe fighters at the tail end of the war, but this may be apocryphal- hopefully Edgar has a copy of the signal which gave the orders for the deletion of the Sky band!

[Edgar]

It was simpler than that; the painted-out band, and black spinner were to make the aircraft less conspicuous, when parked out in the open. I would imagine that the events of 1-1-45 made the Squadrons especially keen to follow the order.

In case you're wondering about the camouflage being compromised by the white band being added to the roundel, experience had found that the narrower white and yellow circles, on the fuselage roundel, tended to merge in with the other colours, at any considerable distance, so, from any sort of height the wing roundel's circle probably wasn't very prominent.

Edgar

Edited May 23, 2010 by Edgar

[Colin S-K]

And just to 'muddy' the waters......

43 Sqn Zeltweg Austria Sep 1945.

Colin

[Jon Kunac-Tabinor]

Cheers guys - I think the OG overpainted band makes sense. I have 2 sets of Revel kit decals, so FT-F is doable using these.

Jonners

[XV571]

Just to add my two-penneth:

According to the notes at the back of Jimmy Beedle's excellent history of 43 Sqn, the spinners were Post Office red with a white baseplate not the more usual dull red used by the DAF. He also wrote that B flight codes were blue outlined with white and A flight wore the red/white version. Although he states that this was from the time of Flt Lt Laing-Meason taking over the squadron (in March 1944), this was most likely not until early 1945 as there are photographs dated up to December 1944 that have B flight aircraft still with white only codes. Going back to MT714/FT-F, this being part of A flight (allocated the letters A-K) would have Red/White. The blue/white codes might be seen in the pictures in the Osprey Elite Units book of 43's ground crew at Klagenfurt in 1945 where the codes appear to more closely match the blue of the roundel than the red. If this is the case, then the Revell kit markings for MK528 are in error! (For Troffa, the Revell markings are for an aircraft at Klagenfurt ).

As to the Sky tail band, wasn't this a Northern European requirement only? Therefore any fighters transferred 'South' before 1945 would have had these (and maybe the yellow leading edges) overpainted. Probably at the end of the war aircraft delivered direct from Northern Europe still had these markings so it was considered unnecessary work to remove them considering how close the two theatres were by then. The photos in the Osprey book certainly show all the possible combinations.

Slightly off-topic, Colin's posting of FT-C/RK855 reminded me to caution those planning to use the markings on Xtradecal's X32025. These state that RK855 has clipped wingtips whereas you can see that the standard tips are in place on the above photo. I know that these were replaceable but, unless someone can prove otherwise, I know which ones I'll be using . (Anyone know the source of the 'MDH loose cutting' referred to in the instructions?). Oh, and why did Xtradecal quote 43 instead of 601 Sqn for MJ532/UF-G on sheet X72110?

[Test Graham]

Good value for two penn'orth.

The Day Fighter Scheme (Dark Green and Ocean Grey) was also Northern Europe only, officially, but by 1944 aircraft were being delivered to Italy (and Australia) in this scheme, which normally included the Sky band, spinner and Yellow leading edges. Some or all of these were often overpainted, but (as shown) not always. This was partly because of standardisation of Spitfire colour schemes to reduce production time, costs, and make allocation of the finished aircraft easier.

Unless you are going to argue that these aircraft are in the (supposedly) more correct Temperate Land Scheme of Dark Green and Dark Earth? Come to think of it, that looks rather dark for Ocean Grey........

Edited May 23, 2010 by Graham Boak

[Jon Kunac-Tabinor]

MT714 in the pic - looks like it has the yellow leading edges still.

Though I presume that if the airframe does have yellow leading edges, its unlikely to have been in the temperate scheme?

Cheers for all the input everyone.

Jonners

[IanC]

Hi Jon

For the record, the photo you posted was taken at Ramatuelle ALG, a few miles south of Saint Tropez on 22 August 1944.

Ian

[Lotus49]

Hello all

I've just joined up. I normally build race cars, but I got into "builders block" and I thought I'd try aircraft to break out. So far it's working!

What a coincidence seeing this question - I was wondering about the same thing before I went ahead and painted the band on this Spitfire that I'm building at the moment.

I made my choice of Sky based on nothing more than seeing how many Spitfires seem to have that colour, and the fact that I liked the contrast! The kit decal (Hasegawa) is printed in Ocean Grey.

According to the decal instructions, this scheme was for August 1944, Southern France. The instructions call for the spinner to be 90% brown, 10% red - sounds strange to me, I prefer the post office red that someone mentioned earlier.

And at the risk of hijacking the thread, do you think a hot cloth will make this decal flatten out, or should I get another set? This is after a coating of MicroSol, but it's not going down too well.

Hijack off.

It's very enjoyable watching all the fine work on this forum. I had this idea that painting cars was more challenging than aircraft to get a good finish, but after painting this multicoloured scheme I've changed my mind. There's a lot to learn here!

Regards

Graham

[mtd350]

HTH

[Jon Kunac-Tabinor]

Hello all

I've just joined up. I normally build race cars, but I got into "builders block" and I thought I'd try aircraft to break out. So far it's working!

What a coincidence seeing this question - I was wondering about the same thing before I went ahead and painted the band on this Spitfire that I'm building at the moment.

I made my choice of Sky based on nothing more than seeing how many Spitfires seem to have that colour, and the fact that I liked the contrast! The kit decal (Hasegawa) is printed in Ocean Grey.

According to the decal instructions, this scheme was for August 1944, Southern France. The instructions call for the spinner to be 90% brown, 10% red - sounds strange to me, I prefer the post office red that someone mentioned earlier.

And at the risk of hijacking the thread, do you think a hot cloth will make this decal flatten out, or should I get another set? This is after a coating of MicroSol, but it's not going down too well.

Hijack off.

It's very enjoyable watching all the fine work on this forum. I had this idea that painting cars was more challenging than aircraft to get a good finish, but after painting this multicoloured scheme I've changed my mind. There's a lot to learn here!

Regards

Graham

Hi Graham if the microsol has dried and the decals is still that wrinkly you will need to remove and re do. I would definitely try the hot cloth method too - I've been using is for a while now and as log as the cloth is as hot as you can bear ( ie HOT not warm) it does seem to work. I'd still l lay the decal down onto some Microset first too.

The strange colour mix call for the spinner seems to be Hawagawa interpretation of RAFF dull ident red ( ie roundel red).

Nice spit too. BTW

Jonners

PS anyone who can get s deep, glossy, even and smooth finish on a model car gets my admiration - give me camo schemes any day!!

[XV571]

Good value for two penn'orth.

The Day Fighter Scheme (Dark Green and Ocean Grey) was also Northern Europe only, officially, but by 1944 aircraft were being delivered to Italy (and Australia) in this scheme, which normally included the Sky band, spinner and Yellow leading edges. Some or all of these were often overpainted, but (as shown) not always. This was partly because of standardisation of Spitfire colour schemes to reduce production time, costs, and make allocation of the finished aircraft easier.

Unless you are going to argue that these aircraft are in the (supposedly) more correct Temperate Land Scheme of Dark Green and Dark Earth? Come to think of it, that looks rather dark for Ocean Grey........

Thanks Graham, I always like to think that I give value for money . I have the picture posted by Colin in both the Osprey book and the 43 Sqn history and the tones are slightly different in both! I think I'll stick with the Day Fighter scheme as it seems to be the more likely (for now). At least it's less frustrating than trying to work out which scheme was on their Hurricanes in North Africa from November 1942.

Hello all

I've just joined up. I normally build race cars, but I got into "builders block" and I thought I'd try aircraft to break out. So far it's working!

What a coincidence seeing this question - I was wondering about the same thing before I went ahead and painted the band on this Spitfire that I'm building at the moment.

I made my choice of Sky based on nothing more than seeing how many Spitfires seem to have that colour, and the fact that I liked the contrast! The kit decal (Hasegawa) is printed in Ocean Grey.

According to the decal instructions, this scheme was for August 1944, Southern France. The instructions call for the spinner to be 90% brown, 10% red - sounds strange to me, I prefer the post office red that someone mentioned earlier.

Hijack off.

It's very enjoyable watching all the fine work on this forum. I had this idea that painting cars was more challenging than aircraft to get a good finish, but after painting this multicoloured scheme I've changed my mind. There's a lot to learn here!

Regards

Graham

That's a nice looking Spitfire; like Jonners I'm in awe of anyone who can reproduce the finish seen on race cars. The brown/red mix for the spinner sounds like it's trying to match the undercoat red mentioned by Jimmy Beedle as being the more usual colour for Desert Air Force fighters. Which boxing did these markings come in? I'd love to get my hands on a set for my 43 Sqn collection.

[Jon Kunac-Tabinor]

Which boxing did these markings come in? I'd love to get my hands on a set for my 43 Sqn collection.

XV - the markings are in the revel boxing - though they are for FT-M MK528 - a Mk IX, but if you can scrounge another set - FT-F becomes doable ( as long as you can cobble the serials from the decal bank)

Jonners

[XV571]

Thanks Jonners - I already have the Revell kit with plans to do MK528 (maybe with blue/white codes as per my previous post ). I'd like to see the Hasegawa sheet though, if only to see whether it has cream outlines to the red codes!

Edited May 25, 2010 by XV571

[Lotus49]

Which boxing did these markings come in? I'd love to get my hands on a set for my 43 Sqn collection.

I'd like to see the Hasegawa sheet though, if only to see whether it has cream outlines to the red codes!

The codes are outlined in white - you can see in my previous post.

To be honest, I think that painting cars is easier. Admittedly dust is a bigger problem, but I find that painting with lacquers is much easier and "hard edge" masking is easier too. Here's one that I did recently (excuse the subject on an aircraft forum!). The red, white and black areas are paint.

I find that enamels are difficult to work with. No matter how I thin and adjust the spray, it seems to lay down very rough (even for a matte paint), and the panel lines keep needing to be reopened. I suppose I should just practice more. This Spitfire is the first plane I've done, so maybe I should just lighten up.

Apologies again to the OP for wandering off topic!

[XV571]

Graham, thanks very much for the info on the kit. My comment on the cream codes is because Japanese produced decals (especially Hasegawa's) are notorious for the whites being a curious cream/ivory colour. Fortunately they seem to have solved this recently and now the whites are, well, white!

As for the finish on the Spitfire, it looks pretty good to me. Which enamels and thinners are you using? Some batches of Humbrol paints are known to be less than brilliant in quality and have caused a lot of frustration to several modellers on here. I mainly use Xtracolors with their own brand of thinners and am pretty happy with the results. They are also glossy so eliminating that rough matt finish that loves to cause decal silvering.

Jonathan