Typhoon FR.1b - the Foto Tiffie

[dahut]

I recently learned that the Typhoon was also done in a foto recce variant. But, I'm getting some conflicting info.

One source says it held either a pair of vertical cameras in the rear fuse or a forward facing camera in the wing.

Yet another says it held all three cameras in the wing location, two mounted vertically and the one forward facing camera.

The one thing they agree on was that the inboard starboard cannon was removed on all versions to fit the photo gear in place. To balance the weigh shift this caused, the inner port side cannon was also removed on these birds.

I've been keen on this variant since I first learned of it. So what's the deal and just where can I find some dedicated info on the 60 or so Foto Tiffies?

[AnonymousFO98]

good choice Dahut

can't really offer much

have a 1/72 academy Tiffie that i made a while back that needed some restoration, so i decided to convert to FR1

but hit a wall re info- only got a couple of pics.

iirc one of the versions was a modified cannon as a camera port

[Glenn R]

Hi Dahut,

Try the following references:- Typhoon & Tempest at war, by Reed & Beamont, page 31

The Hawker Typhoon & Tempest, by Mason, page 90,91

The Typhoon & Tempest story, by Thomas & Shores, page 26,27.

It would appear that three cameras were fitted into the port inner cannon bay, two pointing down and the other obliquily to the port wingtip. A cine camera was fitted in the starboard inner cannon bay pointing forward.

Here is my rendition of such a machine, the old Revell 1/32 kit modified.

I hope this will be of some use to you.

Regards,

Glenn

[dahut]

Well thats nice, Glenn - and conflicts yet again! But Im learning. Thanks very much.

[phantomfixer]

Hi David,

well its not limited to WWII recce's, I have pictures of 6 different camera installations with the corresponding nose cone mods on Drakens. Advances in camera technology and mission requirements are the culprits I expect. Best is to nail it to a specific aircraft no as a norm for all ( two cents worth). After saying that, you also cant go wrong whose to say that in its service live a certain airframe was never configured that way.

Cordially

Walt

[AnonymousFO98]

nice build Glenn

which kit is that please?

I hope Dahut has more success finding info than i did

seem a bit hard to come by Walt-though not having Glenn's library seems a bit of a hinderance

[Glenn R]

nice build Glenn

which kit is that please?

I hope Dahut has more success finding info than i did

seem a bit hard to come by Walt-though not having Glenn's library seems a bit of a hinderance

Hi Walrus,

If you look again at my post you will see that I mentioned it was the old Revell 1/32 kit modified.

Dahut,

Photos of PR Tiffies are very rare and I can only find ones of the aircraft I modelled. I wish you luck on your quest. Hope these may be of use.

Regards,

Glenn

[zeke]

I knew about the Photo version, but I didn't have a clue as to how the cameras were mounted in there...great info Glenn.

I wonder why they didn't shove the camera gear in the fuselage like every other bugger did? Seems odd putting it all in the wing and if they ever had to fire the guns then having a whacking great 20mm so close to the cameras wouldn't have done them any good would it?

Good old British eccentricity...

[AnonymousFO98]

thanks Glenn

missed the scale- was late last night- hadn't been on the pop - honest

[rod mcq]

I don't know what scale you are working in but Airwaves produce a resin replacement panel containing the camera bulges for the port wing. 1/72nd AES72133 and in 1/48th AES48053

[dahut]

Thanks, Glen! You ARE a great fellow, aren't you?

As one might expect, I am reluctant to actually buy a lot reference books, now that the internet has come along. Your scans are just the ticket and I appreciate you sharing your wealth with all of us. Very generous of you.

I wouldn't object to duplicating that very Tiffie, so no worries. There were only 60 of them, so photos of them are bound to be scarce and I have to take what I can get. I'm guessing that old "S" might have a stablemate marked "T" or maybe "R", so I could vary it a little that way? I would do an inflight display model, anyway, once I get round to it.

I am more interested in representing the "concept" of a PR Tiffie, as opposed to duplicating any individual aircraft. Currently I have only the Monogram issue, so no sense in getting all carried away with this. This means only external camera attributes are needed.

From what little I have read about the wing installations, Zeke, you nailed it. The quality of the camera work wasn't good with these Tiffies, and so the idea was soon dropped.

And thanks for the info on the Aires AM resin, Rod. I'll look around for it over here.

BM rules!!

[Glenn R]

Thanks, Glen! You ARE a great fellow, aren't you?

As one might expect, I am reluctant to actually buy a lot reference books, now that the internet has come along. Your scans are just the ticket and I appreciate you sharing your wealth with all of us. Very generous of you.

I wouldn't object to duplicating that very Tiffie, so no worries. There were only 60 of them, so photos of them are bound to be scarce and I have to take what I can get. I'm guessing that old "S" might have a stablemate marked "T" or maybe "R", so I could vary it a little that way? I would do an inflight display model, anyway, once I get round to it.

I am more interested in representing the "concept" of a PR Tiffie, as opposed to duplicating any individual aircraft. Currently I have only the Monogram issue, so no sense in getting all carried away with this. This means only external camera attributes are needed.

From what little I have read about the wing installations, Zeke, you nailed it. The quality of the camera work wasn't good with these Tiffies, and so the idea was soon dropped.

And thanks for the info on the Aires AM resin, Rod. I'll look around for it over here.

BM rules!!

Hi David,

What you say about the stablemates could possibly be true, but I have a copy of the logbook of one of the pilots on 268 Sqn. and it seems at that time (middle-late 1944) many aircraft were 'pooled' around the Tac-R squadrons and comprised mainly of Mustangs and Typhoon FR.1B's, so 'T' or 'R' may not have been a Typhoon.

Here is a list I compiled, some years ago, of 268 Sqn. Typhoon FR.1B serials, plus the individual aircraft letter, where found:-

EJ905,EJ929,EJ949,EK180,EK196,EK212,EK233,EK240,EK247,EK267,EK323,EK372 'B',EK380,EK383,EK427 'S',EK428,EK429,EK436,EK440,JP371,JP372,JP373

Please do not treat this as gospel. I'm sure some more learned members could expand and correct this list, but at least it's a start.

Regards,

Glenn

[AnonymousFO98]

hi Glenn

that is a lot more info than i had before Dahut posed his question so a big thanks to both of you :thumsup:

[dahut]

hi Glenn

that is a lot more info than i had before Dahut posed his question so a big thanks to both of you :thumsup:

Isn't that the truth!

Glenn frets that there might be some more learned folks on the subject... I rather doubt it!

I now bow in a direction approximating Britain, towards you, Glenn. All hail Glenn, King of Typhoons!

Edited March 2, 2009 by dahut

[Glenn R]

Isn't that the truth!

Glenn frets that there might be some more learned folks on the subject... I rather doubt it!

I now bow in a direction approximating Britain, towards you, Glenn. All hail Glenn, King of Typhoons!

Hi David,

I hate to disillusion you, but I haven't lived in England for many years and now reside in Thailand. As for 'king of Typhoons', this is certainly not so, you were just lucky that I had the information readily to hand.

Good luck with the project and PM me if you need any more help and I'll see what I can do.

Regards,

Glenn

[dahut]

Hi David,

I hate to disillusion you, but I haven't lived in England for many years and now reside in Thailand. As for 'king of Typhoons', this is certainly not so, you were just lucky that I had the information readily to hand.

Good luck with the project and PM me if you need any more help and I'll see what I can do.

Regards,

Glenn

Well, phooey - that curdles my mustard, doesn't it! Sorry about that, chum.

[dogsbody]

Well, phooey - that curdles my mustard, doesn't it! Sorry about that, chum.

You Brits sure talk funny.

[ColFord]

The use of the Hawker Typhoon FR.1b and PR.1b is a little known and not well documented part of the history of the Hawker Typhoon. The conversion came in two types, the FR.1b which was the installation of a single F.24 oblique camera in the port inboard cannon bay, and the PR.1b which was the installation of a single F.24 oblique camera and a pair of F.24 vertical cameras in the port inboard cannon bay. The modification involved the removal of the corresponding starboard inboard cannon so as to keep recoil forces of the cannon balanced. The predominant conversion was the FR.1b version, with only a limited number of PR.1b variants being completed and used.

The conversion did not involve the fitment of any cameras in the aircraft fuselage.

There was a later modification to the FR.1b which was the installation of a forward facing 35mm cine camera which was performed on a limited number of aircraft – no more than three or four. These were used to film the results of rocket and bombing attacks by 123 & 146 Typhoon Wings. The aircraft would fly along behind the attacking Typhoons and film the results of their attacks by diving towards the target just behind the attacking aircraft. As by the time the photographing aircraft made this pass, any ground flak units were well and truly alerted and somewhat ready to retaliate, this was not a popular role to be allocated to pilots.

The primary user of the Typhoon FR.1b was No.268 Squadron RAF. They commenced to receive modified Typhoon FR.1bs from4 July 1944. They had received a number of well worn unmodified versions in June 1944 for conversion training. They did not commence operations on the type until August 8, 1944.

The Typhoon was not loved as a low level tactical reconnaissance aircraft. They were never able to fully isolate the camera installation, so it suffered from engine and airframe vibration, which blurred photographs. Compared to the Mustang Mk.1A which was the primary type used by No.268 Squadron, the Typhoon had much shorter range, was heavier on the controls, had a habit of ‘weaving’ at lower airspeeds at low altitude, and the Napier engine was notoriously hard to start, maintain and was prone to failures. In addition, whereas the Mustang Mk.1A retained its full 4 x 20mm Hispano cannon armament with its camera mounts, the Typhoon was reduced to a mere 2 x 20mm cannon, and definite negative when forced to engage in any combat or retaliating against German flak. Their only redeeming feature was their ruggedness.

No.268 Squadron used them very much as a ‘second string’ and was glad to see the back of them, relinquishing the last of them to No.4 Squadron in November 1944 when Mustang Mk.II aircraft were started to be received from No.II(AC) Squadron. The reason for their ‘second string’ status in addition to those given in the preceding paragraph was primarily related to range, as at this time of rapid advance from advanced landing round (ALG) to ALG, the Tac/R units were unfortunately given a lower priority for airfields closer to the front and so operational range became a major factor. No.4 Squadron only used a handful of them for a limited time, primarily on post strike reconnaissance for Typhoon wings in 84 Group.

Analysis of Squadron records and available pilot’s log books has allowed a correlation of know Typhoon FR.1b aircraft serials and allocated Squadron identification letters. As the Typhoons were essentially operated as a separate flight in the Squadron, there was duplication of aircraft identification letters between Typhoons and Mustangs.

The following is a list of recorded Typhoon serial numbers known to have been operated by No.268 Squadron. A number of the listed aircraft were standard Typhoons provided for familiarization training. As indicated, those that have a * in the table below are the most likely converted to FR.1b standard based on various records and information. The below list is of 40 Typhoons, well below the 60 known to have been converted to FR.1b standard, and of that 40, 5 are known to be standard Typhoons. A number of the FR.1bs are known to have not been issued to operational units and some may have been converted back to standard configuration. Most of these aircraft are understood to be bubble top aircraft, with three bladed propellers and the original small tailplanes, all with early Sutton Harness. All were fitted with the ‘cuckoo door’ dust filters when operated in France and Belgium. (Airwaves and Ultracast ? produce a 1/48th scale version of the intake with the ‘cuckoo door’ intake and Ultracast do a nice 1/48th scale Typhoon seat with Sutton Harness. The Airwaves FR.1b and PR.1b resin drop in conversion panel is recommended, but care must be exercised in removing the required underwing section on the kit – the cut out is the same size as a panel on the kit.

DN583

EJ905 X

EJ925

EJ929 * #

EJ949 N *

EJ953

EJ955 #

EJ962

EJ968

EJ995

EK135

EK180 R * #

EK191

EK196 M *

EK212 G *

EK233 V *

EK240 *

EK247 F * #

EK267 H *

EK272 C *

EK323 *

EK325 R

EK327

EK350

EK372 B * #

EK380 Y * #

EK383 G * #

EK426

EK427 S *

EK428 N *

EK429 * #

EK436 L * #

EK439

EK440 P * #

JP371 A *

JP372 D * #

JP373 D * #

JP389 E

JR201

MN265

* indicates known or suspected FR.Ib conversion.

# indicates aircraft recorded as passed to No.4 Sqdn by No.268 Sqdn

Either EK426 or EK429 was allocated code ‘T’ based on entry on October 7, 1944 in F/O C. Ivan Smith RCAF pilot’s log book

For reference material currently published and generally available the Typhoon & Tempest Story by Shores & Thomas and the four volume set of 2TAF by Shores and Thomas both contain information on the type. The latter includes a limited number of photos and one profile illustration by Chris Thomas (Volume 2).

The History of No.268 Squadron RAF, “ADJIDAUMO – Tail in Air – The History of No.268 Squadron, Royal Air Force 1940-1946” by Colin Ford, gives the definitive operational history of the Hawker Typhoon FR.1b in service with No.268 Squadron and includes details of all use by the Squadron of the Hawker Typhoon in both modified and un-modified forms.

Glenn, I would be interesting in knowing which pilot of No.268 Squadron you have had access to their log book. Could you please share with me which pilot?

Colin Ford

Canberra

Australia

No.268 Squadron Royal Air Force 1940-1946

Historian by Appointment

(by the surviving Squadron members)

[AnonymousFO98]

Has Glenn has now been dethroned by Colin as Tiffie King?

sorry Glenn we are a fickle lot!

[dahut]

Has Glenn has now been dethroned by Colin as Tiffie King?

sorry Glenn we are a fickle lot!

Im open to letting them share the throne! You guys are the greatest and I thank you for giving your locations, to avoid any further embarrassment on my part . I will now bow in a direction approximating Thailand and Australia...

A Toast to the Two Tiffie Kings! :king:

(And please, no humble genuflections are needed. We little people only ask that you accept with grace all honor and righteous priviledges which accompany your rank.)

[ColFord]

I will bow to Glenn's status as Tiffie King. My expertise is purely around those used by No.268 Squadron and I have to give a lot of credit to Chris Thomas and a few other specialist researchers who have shared their research with me.

I've built two Hasegawa 1/48 scale Typhoons to represent aircraft used by the Squadron. The first as one of the well worn examples used for conversion training, and then one of the operational FR.1bs.

I have the kits and appropriate Airwaves and Ultracast bits to do another two of the Squadron's Typhoon's when I find the time.

Regards,

Edited March 3, 2009 by ColFord

[dahut]

I will bow to Glenn's status as Tiffie King. My expertise is purely around those used by No.268 Squadron and I have to give a lot of credit to Chris Thomas and a few other specialist researchers who have shared their research with me.

I've built two Hasegawa 1/48 scale Typhoons to represent aircraft used by the Squadron. The first as one of the well worn examples used for conversion training, and then one of the operational FR.1bs.

I have the kits and appropriate Airwaves and Ultracast bits to do another two of the Squadron's Typhoon's when I find the time.

Regards,

They look very well sorted, Colin.

[Glenn R]

Im open to letting them share the throne! You guys are the greatest and I thank you for giving your locations, to avoid any further embarrassment on my part . I will now bow in a direction approximating Thailand and Australia...

A Toast to the Two Tiffie Kings! :king:

(And please, no humble genuflections are needed. We little people only ask that you accept with grace all honor and righteous priviledges which accompany your rank.)

Hi,

There, didn't I say that someone more learned would come along!

Colin, The copied log book I have is of Flt. Lt. A.D. Mercer and it now resides in the RAF museum. Thanks for the additional information.

Regards,

Glenn

[ReccePhreak]

GREAT info on this subject!!

I have two recce Typhoons in the works, a 1/48 one (Hasegawa) and a 1/32 one (Revell). I am using the Airwaves 1/48 conversion as reference for the Revell 1/32 kit. I can see I will have a LOT of detailing to do on it. Speaking of which, does anybody have any good pics or drawings of the cockpit side walls of the Typhoon? I want to try to dress it up with some scratch building. I know I can get the MDC cockpit set, but I only paid $5 for the kit, and can't see paying over $25 plus overseas shipping, for their update set.

Larry

[AnonymousFO98]

Hi Larry

http://www.airwar.ru/other/draw/hawkertyphoonsol.html

if you have problems opening with zip pm me your email addy

there are some useful drawings- though some pics could do with stitching together

they should prove useful

hth for now