Prillers Bf109 E-3

[jacksdad]

I have a kit of the Messerschmitt Bf109E. The marking I fancy doing is Prillers E-3. However the kit decal for the JG51 shield with the weeping raven on the fuselage has no background colour. Problem is I can't find a picture to show this, only shields with a white background.

Can anyone confirm which colour if any was on Prillers shield?

Steve

Edited August 2, 2012 by jacksdad64

[Stonar]

The weeping raven was originally the emblem of 2./JG 71 who were renamed 4./JG 51 in November 1939. They retained their Staffel emblem,including the motto"Gott Strafe England" which had been added at the outbreak of the war. The emblem then became the Gruppe emblem of II./JG 51 and replaced the Gruppe bar on the rear of the fuselage.

The background of the shield was white. I think that some confusion is caused by the overespray visible in photos of Priller's aircraft,including a substantial amount over the emblem. This gives the impression that the ouline of the shield is painted over the mottle with no background colour but other evidence does not,at least in my opinion,support this.

Here a British soldier poses with the emblem on Johann Bohm's machine,shot down on 8/7/40.

The weeping raven is thought by some to be based on a political cartoon depicting Neville Chamberlain.

Cheers

Steve

Edited August 2, 2012 by Stonar

[jacksdad]

Thanks Steve.

You've confirmed what I already suspected.

One other thing though. Did he have his wifes name on the playing card, at this time. It is on the decal but I've seen a profile where it wasn't.

Steve

[Stonar]

There's a well known picture of this plane taken from the port side with some kind of camouflaged revetment behind it and I can't see the name on the card. It might be there but I can't make it out.

Having said that I have no idea when the name may have been added.

Cheers

Steve

[Super Aereo]

Here is a well-known photo of the aircraft:

[Stonar]

Priller's machine,1940.

White background to the Gruppe emblem,as on other,contemporary aircraft from the unit.

You tell me!

I've always been a bit suspicious of that colour image.

Cheers

Steve

[jacksdad]

Mmmmmm. Looks like this is yet another WWII Luftwaffe can of worms.

Edited August 2, 2012 by jacksdad64

[pigsty]

Mmmmmm. Looks like this is yet another WWII Luftwffe can of worms.

Indeed. My impressions from those two photos:

The black-&-white one clearly shows mottling sprayed over the emblem and the emblem clearly has a lighter background than the base colour of the aircraft - especially clear to its left. At the same time, though, the white patch on the bird's wing is lighter than any of the background, except possibly the bit to the left of the umbrella handle. So it's not immediately clear that it's white, but it does seem to have started life in a single light shade.

The colour one seems to show that the mottled camouflage continues within the shield outline. In particular there's a streak extending diagonally up to the right between the cross and the uppermost teardrop. However, this has a slight kink in it, which makes me wonder if the shield might have started in a single light colour on top of the camouflage, and then had some more camouflage added to make it less conspicuous. That single light colour might explain the light patch to the right of the bird, which seems lighter than the base colour just outside the shield, although there's less contrast between it and the white patch on the wing. Something to note about the dark markings on this photo is that they all seem to have a narrow light border, which on the shield appears within and without. I'm not sure whether this is part of the markings or an artefact of the photographic process. Although I'd guess at the latter, that doesn't explain why there isn't a similar halo round the crewman's legs. But it's notable that the border inside the shield merges into the light patch to the bird's right.

[Super Aereo]

The colour image seems to show a thin white border either side of the black line of the shield and the "Gott Strafe England" motto is quite visible. If anyone has better pictures, fine, till then the background of the insignia looks like the same as the fuselage cammo.

[Iain Ogilvie]

That colour image - looks like some of the 'mottling' is shadows from overhead camouflage netting?

Just a thought?

And two different Werk Nmmrs... (scrub that - just realised first a/c was Johann Bohm's) I'll go back to sleep now!

Iain

Edited August 2, 2012 by Iain (32SIG)

[Super Aereo]

No mottling visible on the ground, though.

Edited August 2, 2012 by Super Aereo

[Stonar]

If anyone has better pictures, fine, till then the background of the insignia looks like the same as the fuselage cammo.

In B+W images of Priller's aircraft (I'm still suspicious of that "colour" photo) the shield obviously has a light background with an overspray. The only possible debate therefore is whether this is a white background to the shield or the base colour (RLM 65) showing through.

Every other aircraft of II./JG 51 of which I've seen clear photographs of the emblem clearly have a white background to the shield. There are quite a few to look at.

Now anyone is entitled to interpret a photo as they see it but since we can agree that the background is a light colour (white or RLM 65) and all the evidence from other aircraft would indicate that this is white I'll stick with white.

So incidentally do both Ketley and Rolfe and Sinisa Sestanovic in their reference works for Jagdwaffe emblems.

A wise man once said "don't go looking for a Zebra when there's a donkey on the pasture".

Cheers

Steve

[Super Aereo]

The wings of the bird have white highlights and the black line of the shield has white borders on either side, so the background cannot be white, otherwise it would have the same appearance as the white portions of the bird's wings and the thin white borders of the shield. The background appears to be the same colour as the rest of the fuselage i.e. mottled RLM65.

Even if the other aircraft had a white background to their insignia, this one clearly didn't.

Then again everyone is entitled to their opinion, but the available evidence would suggest the background on this particular aircraft was not white.

[Arniec]

Hmm By looking at the photo I would say that it's the background colour of the fuselage (RLM65?!).

The white in the wing of the bird don't line up with the colour beside that wing.

I believe that my build of the Priller 109 was also without a background colour. Oops I have to correct myself here. Mine was build wit a white background.

Tale a look here for my build. http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.p...=Bf-109+Priller

I hope this will help.

Edited August 3, 2012 by Arniec

[Stonar]

I prefer to look at B+W images which I know are genuine. The background does match the raven's wing in these and I don't see a border.

I remain suspicious of that colour image. The mottle is not heavy enough generally and,particularly aft of the emblem,doesn't match properly.

We can agree to differ of course,there probably isn't a right and wrong which can be determined with 100% certainty anyway

Maybe someone can confirm that the colour image is genuine. Sometimes you see the B+W original like these two:

The poor chap walking in the background of the original got deleted from history like a dissident member of some Politburo!

Cheers

Steve

[jacksdad]

The Luftwaffe can of worms strikes again. I think thats one of the reasons I find it an interesting subject.

And for the record I will be going with the kit choice of no white.

Many thanks to those who offered their opinion.

Steve

[Stonar]

The Luftwaffe can of worms strikes again. I think thats one of the reasons I find it an interesting subject.

Steve

It usually does! It's a brave man who claims that he is certainly correct,braver than me anyway.

It does make for an interesting subject and it's all good fun,particularly if we can agree to differ in a gentlemanly way.

Best of luck with the model.

Cheers

Steve

[Super Aereo]

I have a pet hate for people who colorize photographs without watermarking them as such (to be fair the colorized photo Steve posted does seem at least to bear a signature - "SERG"), because it is almost guaranteed that they will turn up in forums and magazines years from now and there will always be people who will fall for the trick.

The colour photo I posted is ascribed to the collection of M. W. Payne and according to Eric Moombeek - who included a reproduction of it in Jagdwaffe vol.2 Section 4 - is a "...contemporary hand-tinted print but it is nevertheless believed to be a reasonably accurate representation of the aircraft's colouring". Mombeek also adds that the dark mottling on the rudder is indeed due to overhaead camouflage netting.

If Mombeek has seen the original, he is undoubtably right, although I have to say that as hand-colouring goes the hypotetical unknown artist has done a very good job.

Now that I have aspersed ashes on my head, I must nevertheless note that if the background shield of the raven insignia of II/JG51 does indeed start its life as white (from the time of JG71), from July/August 1940 it seems to have - more often than not - a distinctly darker background, which from the scant anedoctal evidence we can suppose to be either light blue or yellow (and again, with anything Luftwaffe, contradictory information abounds). According to Ketley/Rolfe, 5/JG51 had a green raven on a yellow shield, while 6/JG51 had a red one on a white shield (as per the official II/JG51 emblem), but surviving photographic evidence remain inconclusive:

Illner, White 2, 4/JG51

Beeck, Yellow 10, 6/JG51

Böhm, White 4, 4/JG51

White 1, II/JG51

Yellow 7, from 6/JG51

And again, Priller's Yellow 1

All in all the colour of the shield seems to be rather varied: could it have started as a differentiation in staffel colours gone wrong due to aircraft being moved from a staffel to another? I don't know, I hope that some more recent research might have shed some light on the issue.

Regards,

F.

[tango98]

Super Aereo wrote:

"The colour photo I posted is ascribed to the collection of M. W. Payne and according to Eric Moombeek - who included a reproduction of it in Jagdwaffe vol.2 Section 4 - is a "...contemporary hand-tinted print but it is nevertheless believed to be a reasonably accurate representation of the aircraft's colouring". Mombeek also adds that the dark mottling on the rudder is indeed due to overhaead camouflage netting."

In fact, it was my colleague Martin Pegg and I who wrote the captions to the Priller page in B of B vol 2, Phase 4 and yes we did have access to the original at the time.

Also, and just to clarify things about the Jagwaffe Battle of Britain series from Classic Colours, the entire text and all photo and profile captions were written by Eddie Creek, Martin Pegg and I with the exception of a few of the Lw pilots accounts and captions for some JG54 photos which were supplied by Eric. That Eric's name appears first in the author list on the cover was simply an editorial decision that we all agreed on - so now you know who to blame for any mistakes in the series!

Incidentally, if anyone wants to see an original weeping pelican emblem 'in the flesh', one recovered from the wreck of Hans Ilner's 109E was, and still maybe on display in one of the Essex town museum's (Basildon IIRC)

Cheers

Dave

Edited August 5, 2012 by tango98

[Super Aereo]

Thank you for the info, Dave.

I do appreciate that the finished product will often omit a full list of contributors, so any clarification is welcome, as far as I am concerned.

But just for the sake of clarity, are you 100% positive that the image was hand-tinted? What made you think so?

By the way, lest anyone thought otherwise: I am still of the opinion that the shield background to Priller's aircraft was the fuselage mottle.

Personal opinion, of course.

Edited August 5, 2012 by Super Aereo

[rené]

Hi,does any one know where to find this "weeping pelican" (Basildon IIRC)?,googled but no luck.

Regards

[Super Aereo]

Just to be precise, it is supposed to be a raven, not a pelican.

[Super Aereo]

Same of the same info (and some more) in an old thread over at the LEMB (requires registration): http://www.luftwaffe-experten.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=1329&hl=raven#entry6463

[rené]

A photo exists of Beeck's 109 at the aircraftdump in Elham,showing a hole were the emblem use to be.I wonder if it is still survives somewere today.

It would have all the answers.

[FalkeEins]

 ..old thread I know - but as I'm working on the JG 51 section of an exciting new book (series) of Luftwaffe fighter photographs I'd just like to add that the II./JG 51 raven is not weeping..as in  "  two photos of JG 51's 'Weeping Bird' emblem..."

In the original German and as early as Ries' "Photo Collection Luftwaffe Embleme 1935-1945" and his "Dora Kurfurst ... vol 1." -  the raven has been the " verschnupfte Rabe .."  - lit. the 'runny nosed' raven, snuffling, full of cold -  those are not tears. Indeed why would they be since they are falling off the end of his 'nose' ....