812 sqn Swordfishes in the Petsamo raid

[Kari Lumppio]

Hello!

All the news about the magnificent Airfix Swordfish kit have pushed me for search of more info about 812 squadron. Their participation in the Petsamo raid July 1941 connects Swordfish also to the Finnish aviation history.

My copy of Stuart Lloyd's FAA camo and markings book is on loan right now but IIRC it had a picture or two about the 812 sqn Swordfishes? But my question really is what individuals did take part in the raid (there should have been nine of them, see link 2 below)? And what was their camouflage and markings then? Anyone knows anything? Any decals readily available for these are fanciful dreaming, I fear.

thanking in advance,

Kari

Some reading about the Petsamo-Kirkenes raids:

1) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raid_on_Kirkenes_and_Petsamo

2) http://fleetairarmarchive.net/RollofHonour...kenes_1941.html

3) http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/UN/UK/Lond...zette/38300.pdf

[Seahawk]

Hello!

All the news about the magnificent Airfix Swordfish kit have pushed me for search of more info about 812 squadron. Their participation in the Petsamo raid July 1941 connects Swordfish also to the Finnish aviation history.

My copy of Stuart Lloyd's FAA camo and markings book is on loan right now but IIRC it had a picture or two about the 812 sqn Swordfishes? But my question really is what individuals did take part in the raid (there should have been nine of them, see link 2 below)? And what was their camouflage and markings then? Anyone knows anything? Any decals readily available for these are fanciful dreaming, I fear.

thanking in advance,

Kari

Some reading about the Petsamo-Kirkenes raids:

1) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raid_on_Kirkenes_and_Petsamo

2) http://fleetairarmarchive.net/RollofHonour...kenes_1941.html

3) http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/UN/UK/Lond...zette/38300.pdf

The names of participating Swordfish aircrew are given in your reference 2: it looks as if either 2 aircraft didn't carry observers or their names are unknown. The same information appears on p.40 of Ray Sturtivant's The Swordfish Story, together with the following correlation of aircraft codes to pilots:

A: Walthall

B: Wilkinson

C: Cross

F: Baker-Falkner

G: Jones

H: Heath

K: Maughan

L: Kindell

M: Sinclair

Unlike in similar data tables elsewhere in the book no corresponding serials are given: I assume Sturtivant hadn't been able to find them out. No photos of any of them, I'm afraid.

There are a couple of pictures of 812 Swordfish in Lloyd's book (p.75) but dated Spring 1940, not June 1941.

HTH

[iang]

I have copies of most of the Admiralty papers on Operation EF. The reports for Victorious and Furious give codes but not aircraft serials; though damaged aircraft on Victorious are identified by code and serial and one Albacore on Furious from 817 squadron is identified by code and serial. There is no information on 812 squadron Swordfish that identifies individual airframes.

As for photos, there are no 812 Squadron Swordfish photos from this era in the main collection at the FAAM. I also went through the donated photo albums for Furious that are held at the FAAM and found nothing. This is why there are no photos of 812 Swordfish from this period in my book.

This might be of interest, however:

[Kari Lumppio]

Hello!

Marvellous info, Ian! Thank you very much! Do you have any idea (=guess) if 812 sqn used letter only or number-letter? Did they have older airframes with overpainted serials (RAF/FAA)?

As a return favour here is something from a "fellow-in-research", mr. Pentti Manninen.

A photo of British PoWs in German custody at Malmi airfield. Highly probably PoWs from the Kirkenes operation:

Pentti also attached this text:

"... This photo has been in my collection for years and had only now found recently some information:

Malmi airfield logbook gives this limited info:

2 August 1941

21.20 one Luftwaffe Junkers Ju 52 arrived with 14 British naval POW-aviators from Kirkenäs (Norway). Placed inside the Customs Office under armed guard.

3 August 1941

11.55 yesterday arrived British POW´s flown to Germany on 11.55 onboard Luftwaffe Junkers Ju 52.

I would be pleased if could have any information to possibly identify these POW´s connected (possibly) with the FAA operation against Kirkenäs on 30 July 1941. At least 827.Sqn FAA lost several Albacore aircraft. One Lt Turnbull survived and picked up from sea by German boat. But obviously 13 more survived the combat with fighters and a-a fire from ships.

Best regards,

Pentti

Does anyone recognize these British aviators?

Best Regards,

Kari

[Kari Lumppio]

Hello!

Thank you Seahawk too. One name is interesting. Would the Cowan, EA be any relation to the Rear Admiral Walter Cowan of the "Cowan's War" fame? The book is about Royal Navy actions at Baltic sea 1919. See also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Campa...18%E2%80%931919

Why two of the Swordfishes are with crew of two? Were the planes equipped with radar or something?

Before the answers here I started the same thread also at 12 O'clock High -forum: http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=28313

and things are now progressing also there. I put there hot link of a photo taken after the Petsamo (Liinahamari) attack, which I found today.

Cheers,

Kari

[Seahawk]

So, to sum up where we've got to between the 2 fora:

- you have the individual letters of the 9 812 Sq involved (Sturtivant: The Swordfish Story p.40 as quoted in my post above). 6 of those idents (A-C and F-H) are corroborated by the sketch provided by IanG above.

- you have the names of 25 of the maximum of 27 crew involved, correlated to airframe (Sturtivant, same source). The names tally perfectly with those on fleetairarmarchive.net.

- thanks to Graham Boak's study of Sturtivant's FAA Aircraft you have plausible serial numbers for 2 of those aircraft (P4277:C and V4380:G).

The record cited by Graham for V4389 is confusing. All 9 812 Sq aircraft returned safely yet the record says this aircraft was lost in the raid. The pilot is stated to have been a S/L Rideal but no such pilot is recorded as having taken part in the raid. If you go along with Sturtivant's suggestion that Rideal is a misprint/mistranscription/error for Kindell and pass lightly over the fact that the aircraft is stated to have been lost, you would have another correlation: V4389:L.

That's not bad going for an event 70 years ago, which everyone was no doubt anxious to forget about as quickly as possible. There may be more code/serial correlations to be quarried from FAA Aircraft but I don't want to steal Graham's thunder.

As regards your other questions:

- I have no idea why 2 of the aircraft apparently carried no observer. I leave open the possibility that those 2 names were simply not recorded but I think it is unlikely.

- The Albacores on the raid carried number/letter combinations. It would be reasonable to assume, repeat assume, that 812's Swordfish did as well. But we do not know.

- Sorry, I have absolutely no idea whether L/A Cowan was related to Rear Admiral Cowan. But I judge it unlikely: Cowan is not an uncommon name and I doubt whether the son of an Admiral would have been serving as a mere Leading Airman.

Good luck with your researches: interesting topic and some interesting stuff coming up.

Edit to correct error in serial number.

Edited January 26, 2012 by Seahawk

[Kari Lumppio]

Hello!

Thanks to Graham there is now three "good" code/letter pairs for Petsamo raid Swordfishes:

P4380 / G

P4277 / C

L7644 / H

Do these serials give any hints about the camouflage? TSS, shadow shade or what? I really need to get back my copy of the FAA camouflage book (Lloyd)...

As far as I am concerned the code (markings) question has been solved satisfactorily save the question of was a letter or number/letter comination carried. And was the letter painted on wing undersides?

Cheers,

Kari

[Seahawk]

As far as I am concerned the code (markings) question has been solved satisfactorily save the question of was a letter or number/letter comination carried. And was the letter painted on wing undersides?

Ray Sturtivant was, to judge by his work, a careful and methodical man. In the "data boxes" in The Swordfish Story he appears to give the full codes in inverted commas and the serials when he knows them eg he lists 3-digit codes for aircraft involved in various raids on Narvik. In the case of the Petsamo raid, he gives only single letter codes in inverted commas. Perhaps I am reading too much into this but that would seem to indicate to me that he either knew or had reason to believe that the aircraft involved carried single letter codes. That seems to me logical: the number element identified the squadron within the carrier's air group. Glorious had been sunk so the 3, diffferentiating 812 from her other Swordfish squadron(s), had become meaningless. (Between the loss of Glorious 812 and embarking in Furious for the Petsamo raid, 812 had been shore-based, apart from a detachment which provided A/S cover on a ferry trip by Argus in April-May 1941.)

No idea about codes under wingtips.

Marking-wise, from my reading of Lloyd (p.114) I would expect to see the code on the fuselage with the fin camouflaged in upper surface colours and carrying a 24" x 27" fin flash. ROYAL NAVY titles on the fuselage. But that is pure speculation, based on my understandign of the instructions in effect at the time of the raid.

PS Sturtivant also says in The Swordfish Story that on the raid 6 of 812 Sq's Swordfishes carried torpedoes and 3 bombs. IanG's sketch shows what aircraft used torpedoes so it looks as if K, L and M were the bombers.

HTH.

[joep]

I have copies of most of the Admiralty papers on Operation EF. The reports for Victorious and Furious give codes but not aircraft serials; though damaged aircraft on Victorious are identified by code and serial and one Albacore on Furious from 817 squadron is identified by code and serial. There is no information on 812 squadron Swordfish that identifies individual airframes.

As for photos, there are no 812 Squadron Swordfish photos from this era in the main collection at the FAAM. I also went through the donated photo albums for Furious that are held at the FAAM and found nothing. This is why there are no photos of 812 Swordfish from this period in my book.

This might be of interest, however:

May I ask you about the name of the book?

Is in your book list of planes with codes, serials and names of crews, which participated in Petsamo and Kirkenes raid ?