dragonlanceHR Posted November 25, 2009 Share Posted November 25, 2009 Hi folks, today I received an e-mail from a fellow modeler (we're both Croatian). He received an querry from a fellow aircraft enthusiast, who found an silver RAF ID plate/bracelet with an RAF crest and motto on the right side, and engraved J. SCARRATT 124473 on the left. The location is mountain Biokovo, near the village Podaca (http://www.worldplaces.net/hr/hrv/15/podaca/), on the south coast of Croatia. According to witnesses in spring-early summer of 1944 there was an air battle between 3 Spitfires/Hurricanes and 4 Messerschmitt's/Stukas. 5 aircraft were downed, two of them British. One British pilot force landed near the Umcani village (http://www.worldplaces.net/hr/hrv/15/umcani/)and was taken prisoner by the quisling NDH forces, apparently he was Scottish and was smoking a pipe near his aircraft when he was captured. The founder would like to return the bracelet to the family of the airman. In may this year he contacted the UK embassy and sent them the photo, but he received no further answer and his online search found no missing airman named J. Scarratt. Is there an RAF missing persons agency or similar he could contact? Any help would be appreciated. Bye, Vedran Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julien Posted November 26, 2009 Share Posted November 26, 2009 Hi, try here for some links; http://www.raf.mod.uk/history_old/rafhis.html Julien Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyT Posted November 26, 2009 Share Posted November 26, 2009 (edited) The good people from the military forum of PPrune are also on the case so far this is what they have NutLoose Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: UK Posts: 1,297 Folks your help is needed in reuniting a ww2 pilots family with his property -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posted on a modelling site I visit..... Quote: Hi folks, today I received an e-mail from a fellow modeler (we're both Croatian). He received an querry from a fellow aircraft enthusiast, who found an silver RAF ID plate/bracelet with an RAF crest and motto on the right side, and engraved J. SCARRATT 124473 on the left. The location is mountain Biokovo, near the village Podaca (http://www.worldplaces.net/hr/hrv/15/podaca/), on the south coast of Croatia. According to witnesses in spring-early summer of 1944 there was an air battle between 3 Spitfires/Hurricanes and 4 Messerschmitt's/Stukas. 5 aircraft were downed, two of them British. One British pilot force landed near the Umcani village (http://www.worldplaces.net/hr/hrv/15/umcani/)and was taken prisoner by the quisling NDH forces, apparently he was Scottish and was smoking a pipe near his aircraft when he was captured. The founder would like to return the bracelet to the family of the airman. In may this year he contacted the UK embassy and sent them the photo, but he received no further answer and his online search found no missing airman named J. Scarratt. Is there an RAF missing persons agency or similar he could contact? Any help would be appreciated. Bye, Vedran This was suggested, The Royal Air Force - History Section anyone else able to narrow it down for him? Cheers Today, 10:12 #2 (permalink) forget Join Date: Jul 1999 Location: 58-33N. 00-18W. Peterborough UK Posts: 2,109 NutLoose, Here's the first problem. The surname 'Scarratt' may not exist. From 'British Surnames'. Search for 'SCARRATT'. Sorry, we don't currently have any data for SCARRATT. If this is your name: Congratulations, you are a genuine rarity, at least in the UK. Maybe you should try to breed, to avoid the SCARRATT family becoming extinct! If you know something of the origin of this name, why not start a thread about it on the forum - if we get enough information, we may be able to add it to the main site eventually. Today, 10:14 #3 (permalink) NutLoose Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: UK Posts: 1,297 but what about his number? Today, 10:20 #4 (permalink) forget Join Date: Jul 1999 Location: 58-33N. 00-18W. Peterborough UK Posts: 2,109 Sorry, Disregard the 'British Surnames' web site - bag of nails. A simple Google for 'Scarratt' throws up lots of people. I should have done that first. PS. There's a Sqn Ldr Gordon Scarratt at RAF Kinloss. Worth trying ?? Today, 10:24 #5 (permalink) NutLoose Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: UK Posts: 1,297 but what about his number? Today, 10:56 #6 (permalink) c-bert Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Portsmouth Age: 29 Posts: 429 Welcome to the Imperial War Museum : Royal Air Force Service Records Might a letter to Innsworth be the way forward? Today, 11:04 #7 (permalink) BossEyed Join Date: May 1999 Location: UK Posts: 258 The following is offered for elimination: A search for "Scarratt" within the London Gazette comes up with a few hits, but none that mach the Service Number. A search on "124473" is also fruitless - no links with the surname Scarratt. Could he have been a Commonwealth airman, and if so might that explain why he doesn't appear in the Gazette? Today, 11:17 #8 (permalink) sycamore Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: east ESSEX Posts: 904 N-L, try the `keypublishing` web(Flypast) historic forum,as there is a good group of `anoraks` on there as well. Today, 11:29 #9 (permalink) green granite More bang for your buck Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: land of the clanger Age: 67 Posts: 1,625 There were some South African squadrons flying from Italy at that time who did sorties over Croatia, (I found a ref to a german killed by marauding SAAF spitfires "The top-scoring Croat fighter pilot was Nadporucik (Lt.) Cvitan Galic with 38 confirmed air victories. He was killed on the ground by marauding South-African Spitfires at Zaluzani airfield, Croatia, on 6 April, 1944.") so it might be a good Idea to search in the SA archives. List of SAAF units: http://milhist.*************/2009/11...of-second.html insert b l o g s p o t . com without the spaces in place of the * Today, 11:32 #10 (permalink) Icare9 Join Date: May 2008 Location: London Posts: 157 There is a list of PoW Names on the internet, Scarratt (or similar version) does not appear in the PoW List in Germany. CWGC has no listing for any Scarratt in RAF, RAAF, RCAF, RNZAF or SAAF records. Tried searching PoW database for 124473 but no hit so far, trying other letters of the alphabet to see if anything similar appears elsewhere, if a valid ID No. (RCAF usually start with Alpha/xxxx). Looks as if you need to get RAF Records involved with losses that day, which may narrow down the search. Today, 11:39 #11 (permalink) c-bert Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Portsmouth Age: 29 Posts: 429 Looking at the Imperial War Museum website, it is possible that it is earlier than WW2? My history of the region is a little fuzzy. Today, 12:34 #12 (permalink) StopStart Champagne anyone...? Join Date: Oct 1999 Location: a festering dust pit. Age: 40 Posts: 846 It may be that your history of history is a little fuzzy too! I'm pretty sure that Spitfires weren't shooting down ME109s before WWII... It doesn't appear that J Scarratt features on the Runnymede memorial either. As a previous poster said, I think a search of the RAF Records will be the only way forward with this. Edited November 26, 2009 by TonyT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyT Posted November 26, 2009 Share Posted November 26, 2009 http://www.rafcommands.com/forum/showthread.php?t=27 Number was issued in ww1...... update from pprune Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Fleming Posted November 26, 2009 Share Posted November 26, 2009 (edited) List of Scarratts on the CWGC website: http://www.cwgc.org/search/SearchResults.a...7&send.y=14 Can't guarantee all WW2 casualties are listed there. but is probably comprehensive What circumstances was the bracelet found in? Was it found with remains, or aircraft wreckage? Could it have been lost by someone who was escaping/evading? Edited November 26, 2009 by Dave Fleming Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragonlanceHR Posted November 26, 2009 Author Share Posted November 26, 2009 (edited) Thank you all for your help. What circumstances was the bracelet found in? Was it found with remains, or aircraft wreckage? Could it have been lost by someone who was escaping/evading? It was found near the aircraft remains. No mention of the body. The locals have been using the wreck for parts after the war. I'll ask for more info. EDIT What do the RAF WW ID tabs look like? Is it possible that the downed pilot was a relative of J.SCARRATT of WW1 vintage? Upon re-reading the e-mail I found that the Scotsman is identified as last name Gray, he was POW in Zagreb with 2 other Brits and about 60 Americans, downed over today's Croatia and Bosnia and Herzegovina. Edited November 26, 2009 by dragonlanceHR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyT Posted November 26, 2009 Share Posted November 26, 2009 Can you get a pic of the bracelet or of the wreckage, and ID plate off the wreck would be of help too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyT Posted November 26, 2009 Share Posted November 26, 2009 Vedran, some updates to the stunning work being done on pprune.. philrigger Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Over the rainbow Posts: 187 J. Scarratt -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From the London Gazette; The number 124473 was allocated to F/O GHM RICHARDSON. Who was discharged from the RAF for medical reasons in 1943. Perhaps the number relates to Royal Navy FAA? Or to another allied air force? There are a number of SCARRATTs mentioned in the LG but mostly army with one navy. (As far as I have searched). But very few J. Scarratt. There are lots of SCARRETTs. There is nothing on the Commonwealth War Graves Commission site. The plot thickens. I now leave it to others! Philrigger Yesterday, 19:10 #20 (permalink) helidriver Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: UK Posts: 92 After a quick search of the Commonwealth War Graves Commission website the following is shown: KEY No Surname Rank Service Number Date Of Death Age Regiment/Service Nationality Grave/Memorial Ref. Cemetery/Memorial Name 1 SCARRATT , JOSHUA Private S/7412 21/05/1916 21 Black Watch (Royal Highlanders) United Kingdom I. A. 9. BULLY-GRENAY COMMUNAL CEMETERY, BRITISH EXTENSION 2 SCARRATT , JOHN ARTHUR Flight Cadet 128917 28/12/1918 18 Royal Air Force United Kingdom North-East of Church. CRAIL PARISH CHURCHYARD 3 SCARRATT , J H Sapper 507708 25/09/1917 37 Canadian Engineers Canadian III. F. 12. AUBIGNY COMMUNAL CEMETERY EXTENSION 4 SCARRATT , JAMES HENRY Private T/204925 09/08/1918 21 The Queen's (Royal West Surrey Regiment) United Kingdom Panel 3. VIS-EN-ARTOIS MEMORIAL I draw your attention to Serial 2 where the Service Number bears some resemblence to the individual in question. All hyperthetical of course, but both Scarretts could be related, maybe brothers and the WW2 one carried the bracelet as a keepsake. Any of the Scarretts listed may well be the WW2 individuals Father and he carried the bracelet for the same reason. An interesting find nevertheless, and I really hope there is closure, but the answer may not be as straight forward as one might suggest. h Union Jack Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: UK Posts: 398 Could one of you clever fellows please try a different angle of attack and track down the loss of the two aircraft in the area specified in the admittedly fairly broad period of spring/early summer 1944, and see where that leads? Also, I wonder if anyone has access to Air Force Lists for the relevant period. Jack PS Only punctuation, but British naval officers did not have Service Numbers until the 1970s Yesterday, 19:54 #22 (permalink) WATB Join Date: May 2008 Location: Somerset Age: 61 Posts: 3 If the aircraft involved were Hurricanes that narrows it down to 6 Squadron who were active from February 1944 attacking targets along the whole Dalmatia coast. The only other candidates are the two Yugoslav RAF squadrons (351 and 352) but they were not operational to late summer 1944. Yesterday, 20:24 #23 (permalink) Topsy Turvey Join Date: May 2004 Location: Scotland Posts: 40 RAF Records -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- May be worth an enquiry to RAF Records office which is now at Cranwell (not Innsworth as suggested by Imperial War Museum link earlier in thread). http://www.raf.mod.uk/contactus/ If you explain what it is about they may be willing to forward a letter to last known address of airman or NOK. asking them to contact you. Failing that try the Historic Casualty Team at the JCCC (still at Innsworth / Imjin) who may have / be able to obtain information on the crash. Yesterday, 21:11 #24 (permalink) ImageGear Join Date: May 2004 Location: Liz's Place Posts: 188 Google might be a little more of a friend... http://www.shrani.si/f/1a/dK/CUQg7HD/yucrashes.xls Imagegear -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Last edited by ImageGear : Yesterday at 21:30. Yesterday, 22:35 #25 (permalink) green granite more bang for your buck Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: land of the clanger Age: 67 Posts: 1,631 Good find ImageGear Suggest a link is posted on the other site so that the local guy can check locations against local knowledge. Today, 00:15 #26 (permalink) Icare9 Join Date: May 2008 Location: London Posts: 158 Thanks to Image Gear There is an entry for a Grey: but doesn't sound as if he would be found leaning against his plane smoking a pipe. Name: GREY, JOHN NEVILLE Initials: J N Nationality: United Kingdom Rank: Flying Officer Regiment/Service: Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve Unit Text: 6 Sqdn. Age: 22 Date of Death: 23/05/1944 Service No: 125837 Additional information: Son of Thomas E. Grey, and of Amy Grey, of Low Fell, Co. Durham. Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead Grave/Memorial Reference: Panel 13, Column 1. Memorial: MALTA MEMORIAL 322 23/05/1944 Hurricane IV KZ381 No 6 Sqn A/C Code Letter: N F/O J N Grey Yugoslavia Hit by flak while attacking shipping in Podgora Channel; b/o (baled out?) but parachute opened just before hitting the water; observed floating in Mae West profusely bleeding. As you might guess, no easy find for a Scarratt or Scarrett though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragonlanceHR Posted November 28, 2009 Author Share Posted November 28, 2009 Here is the photo One of the possible pilots was F/Lt John McAndrew Brodie from New St. John, New Brunswick,Canada, KIA at 14th of February 1944, near Baska Voda , Makarska, those days Yugoslavia. But it doesn't fit the time frame, and the date of May23rd came up, but it needs clarification, the problem is that I don't communicate directly with the finder, and it's beginning to sound like a broken telephone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tango India Mike Posted November 28, 2009 Share Posted November 28, 2009 Here is the photo One of the possible pilots was F/Lt John McAndrew Brodie from New St. John, New Brunswick,Canada, KIA at 14th of February 1944, near Baska Voda , Makarska, those days Yugoslavia. But it doesn't fit the time frame, and the date of May23rd came up, but it needs clarification, the problem is that I don't communicate directly with the finder, and it's beginning to sound like a broken telephone. No wonder you're not having much luck...that's not an R.A.F. crest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tango India Mike Posted November 28, 2009 Share Posted November 28, 2009 Vedran, I've been scouring the internet in an effort to identify that crest, but haven't met with any success...unfortunately. It most definitely is not Royal Air Force...or any air force, for that matter. Also, I believe that the tag is much too elaborately decorated to be of wartime issue, although it may have been 'modified' by its owner, of course. Without being able to see clearly what inscription may be incorporated in its design, the presence of 'GR' and a King's crown (yes, there IS a difference between a King's and Queen's crown) would at least indicate that it is of pre-1952 vintage. My guess is that it is a military (army) regimental crest...and someone, somewhere, will know exactly what it is. Sorry to disappoint, but the owner of this tag was not an R.A.F. pilot! I hope you manage to eventually solve the mystery. Tim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~Dan~ Posted November 28, 2009 Share Posted November 28, 2009 (edited) I have seen the badge but can't place it. For some reason, it reminds me of being at Horse Guards. EDIT : - Wait a moment. I have an idea. Yep, It looks like the badge of the Royal Army Service Corps (RASC). Thats why it looked familiar... my grandfather was briefly in the regiment before volunteering for the GPR. I think I must remember seeing some of his mates wearing it on their blazers. As the RASC were a corps, they were rather ubiquitous. And they tended to move about a fair bit too. So they can be rather difficult to track down. Edited November 28, 2009 by ~Dan~ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rod mcq Posted November 28, 2009 Share Posted November 28, 2009 The central part of the badge appears to be the Royal Cypher - each monarch has one. This is GR obviously one of the King Georges. Between the G and the R there should be small Roman numerals, either V for King George V (1910 to 1936) or VI for his son King George VI (1936 to 1952). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragonlanceHR Posted November 28, 2009 Author Share Posted November 28, 2009 Hi folks, thanks for the RASC pointer. As stated in the first post, per original e-mail I got the text is the RAF motto "Per ardua ad astra". I'll ask for a cleaner shot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T-Tango Posted November 28, 2009 Share Posted November 28, 2009 I've tried running the pic through Photoshop, but I can't clarify the inscription on the crest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~Dan~ Posted November 28, 2009 Share Posted November 28, 2009 Hi folks, thanks for the RASC pointer. As stated in the first post, per original e-mail I got the text is the RAF motto "Per ardua ad astra". I'll ask for a cleaner shot. Could be from a member of an Air Dispatch Squadron. They were a mix of RAF and RASC, they didn't get their own insignia until very late in the war, and it's quite likely they were resupplying Yugoslavian partisans at some point. Just a theory! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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